Haye the best Heavyweight?

koolkc107 Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:46 am

I guess I will be the first to voice what may be on a lot of others minds...

Is David Haye the best in the division?

Here's the logic, flawed though it may be. And yes, it is just opinion when you get right down to it, but here goes.

Most, including myself, consider Vitali to be the better of the brothers. Though not as technically gifted as his younger brother, he has a much better chin, has beaten better fighters, and has done so largely in a more convincing manner than Wlad.

We just saw less than half a year ago the same Vitali- the better brother- in a competitive contest with Chisora, a fight perhaps closer than the final scorecards. Yes, I know about Vitali's hand and I say if we can make toe jokes about what happened with David, then we have to take the same "no excuses" stance with regard to Vitali.

Well, yesterday David Haye made it look pretty easy against the same guy that put Vitali thru the wringer a bit...and then stopped the same guy Vitali couldn't less than halfway thru a ten rounder.

So the argument can be made that Haye may be the best right now.

And yes, I now want to see a rematch with Wladimir.

Maybe this time, Haye actually fights...

**captainanddew** Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:00 pm

I have a hard time saying Vitali has beaten better fighters than Wlad. The lists suck. Beating Haye and Chagaeve is better than anything Vitali has done in my opinion.

Wlad 2008-current
Ibragimov
Thompson
Rahman
Chagaev
Chambers
Peter
Haye
Mormeck
Thompson

vs Vitali 2008-current
Peter
Gomez
Arreola
Johnson
Sosnowski
Briggs
Solis
Adamek
Chisora

koolkc107 Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:19 pm

captainanddew wrote:I have a hard time saying Vitali has beaten better fighters than Wlad. The lists suck. Beating Haye and Chagaeve is better than anything Vitali has done in my opinion.

Wlad 2008-current
Ibragimov
Thompson
Rahman
Chagaev
Chambers
Peter
Haye
Mormeck
Thompson

vs Vitali 2008-current
Peter
Gomez
Arreola
Johnson
Sosnowski
Briggs
Solis
Adamek
Chisora

Yeah except Haye never showed up. And I disagree that Haye and Ruslan are the best names on either list.

Vitali beat a better Peter in a more convincing manner, and beat the best names on either list, Arreola and Adamek, rather convincingly.

I will concede that the Haye I saw last night is better than those two...problem is will we see that guy or the Toe-man?

Gumby Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:45 pm

Nope. In my opinion Vitali has been worse than Wlad since he came back from retirement. I'm not sure how good Haye looked against Chisora, but Vitali handled him fairly easily (just not by his standards). Either way, I have always wanted to see Vitali vs. Haye because I think Haye could win. He has the legs and speed to pressure Vitali, and Vitali doesn't hit as hard as Wlad.

**dmar5143** Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:52 pm

interesting topic.wlad is far better then vitali..haye can be the best of the bunch talent wise.this time go for it.if he does vitali gets beat.

koolkc107 Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:01 pm

dmar5143 wrote:interesting topic.wlad is far better then vitali..haye can be the best of the bunch talent wise.this time go for it.if he does vitali gets beat.

I disagree, though I respect those who think Wlad is better.

I just can't get it out of my head how the younger brother was put on queer street multiple times by fringe fighters. He will always be second best to Vitali because of that.

But the fact is, Haye just handled easier and stopped a guy that gave Vitali, the better brother, a run for his money.

kbyte Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:07 pm

I disagree. I think Wladimir is the best heavyweight in the world for sure. He beat Haye in an easy fight and I think his record is better than Vitali's. He also beat Sam Peter before Vitali years ago. I understand what you're saying when you compare the way that Vitali beat Derek Chisora and the way Haye beat him but although Haye was more impressive than Vitali I still think that the Ukranian is the better fighter. Styles do make fights after all and a slow fighter like Vitali suited Derek better than the fast handed David Haye.

flapanther2001 Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:48 pm

If you think Haye is the best Hwt, I have some beachfront property in Arizona I can sell you.

**GrantZilla** Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:53 pm

Comparing common opponent to judge who is better is flawed and always will be flawed. By this logic Ali should have lost to Foreman. Since Foreman destroyed two opponents that beat Ali.

Let's not add on that Vitali is a dinosaur and soon to be retiring.

**Soonermark890** Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:05 pm

Haye is not even close to the best heavy.

koolkc107 Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:15 am

No doubt styles make fights, so I prefaced this thread by admitting the logic was flawed.

But watching Haye saturday, he sure looked like a sight for sore eyes.

A skilled heavyweight that is exciting to watch.

The Haye I saw this weekend was better than I have ever seen him, cruiser included.

Guest Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:36 am

Talent wise I'd say Haye is one of the best, there aren't alot of HW's out there who possess Haye's explosive power, speed, ring movement or athletic ability.

Aside from Vitali and Wladimir I don't see Haye losing to many of the top ten. David would blow Adamek out of the water.

koolkc107 Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:36 pm

Ali wrote:Talent wise I'd say Haye is one of the best, there aren't alot of HW's out there who possess Haye's explosive power, speed, ring movement or athletic ability.

Aside from Vitali and Wladimir I don't see Haye losing to many of the top ten. David would blow Adamek out of the water.

All I know is if this Haye had shown up against Wlad, it would have been a Toe-tally different story.

Guest Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:42 pm

koolkc107 wrote:
Ali wrote:Talent wise I'd say Haye is one of the best, there aren't alot of HW's out there who possess Haye's explosive power, speed, ring movement or athletic ability.

Aside from Vitali and Wladimir I don't see Haye losing to many of the top ten. David would blow Adamek out of the water.

All I know is if this Haye had shown up against Wlad, it would have been a Toe-tally different story.

koolkc107 Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:45 pm

Ali wrote:
koolkc107 wrote:
Ali wrote:Talent wise I'd say Haye is one of the best, there aren't alot of HW's out there who possess Haye's explosive power, speed, ring movement or athletic ability.

Aside from Vitali and Wladimir I don't see Haye losing to many of the top ten. David would blow Adamek out of the water.

All I know is if this Haye had shown up against Wlad, it would have been a Toe-tally different story.

I am here all week!

And, I was told by management to mention the baked scrod, and don't forget to tip your waitress.

flapanther2001 Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:28 pm

How can Haye be ranked higher or be the best at Hwt with this resume'?
A washed up Monte Barrett
A completely talentless Valuev, whom he ran from the entire fight.
An already dead John Ruiz.
Audley fucking Harrison?
A nobody Chisora.
A loss to Wlad......
Try your pretzel logic somewhere else dude....

koolkc107 Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:08 pm

flapanther2001 wrote:How can Haye be ranked higher or be the best at Hwt with this resume'?
A washed up Monte Barrett
A completely talentless Valuev, whom he ran from the entire fight.
An already dead John Ruiz.
Audley fucking Harrison?
A nobody Chisora.
A loss to Wlad......
Try your pretzel logic somewhere else dude....

Pretzel logic?

Flawed, maybe...

But aint no spinning this: Haye dominated and dispatched with ease the same guy that fought 12 rugged rounds just this year with Vitali, the better brother.

flapanther2001 Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:31 pm

koolkc107 wrote:
flapanther2001 wrote:How can Haye be ranked higher or be the best at Hwt with this resume'?
A washed up Monte Barrett
A completely talentless Valuev, whom he ran from the entire fight.
An already dead John Ruiz.
Audley fucking Harrison?
A nobody Chisora.
A loss to Wlad......
Try your pretzel logic somewhere else dude....

Pretzel logic?

Flawed, maybe...

But aint no spinning this: Haye dominated and dispatched with ease the same guy that fought 12 rugged rounds just this year with Vitali, the better brother.

Oh....OK, then explain this......Mosley beat Oscar, who beat Mayorga, who beat Forrest, who beat Mosley.......you can't piggy back boxing!!!! Haye is limited & has no resume' at Hwt.

Guest Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:10 pm

flapanther2001 wrote:How can Haye be ranked higher or be the best at Hwt with this resume'?
A washed up Monte Barrett
A completely talentless Valuev, whom he ran from the entire fight.
An already dead John Ruiz.
Audley fucking Harrison?
A nobody Chisora.
A loss to Wlad......
Try your pretzel logic somewhere else dude....

Have you see the HW top ten lately ? It's full of fighters who've beaten about one decent guy. Adamek's only beaten Arreola and yet he's #3.

koolkc107 Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:25 pm

flapanther2001 wrote:
koolkc107 wrote:
flapanther2001 wrote:How can Haye be ranked higher or be the best at Hwt with this resume'?
A washed up Monte Barrett
A completely talentless Valuev, whom he ran from the entire fight.
An already dead John Ruiz.
Audley fucking Harrison?
A nobody Chisora.
A loss to Wlad......
Try your pretzel logic somewhere else dude....

Pretzel logic?

Flawed, maybe...

But aint no spinning this: Haye dominated and dispatched with ease the same guy that fought 12 rugged rounds just this year with Vitali, the better brother.
Oh....OK, then explain this......Mosley beat Oscar, who beat Mayorga, who beat Forrest, who beat Mosley.......you can't piggy back boxing!!!! Haye is limited & has no resume' at Hwt.

Normally, I tend to lean towards exactly what you are saying, Panthro.

Styles make fights and especially in boxing, the a>b>c doesn't always mean a>c.

I get that.

But, sometimes it is a good way to compare, especially if the fights being compared take place close enough together in time (assuming the fighter common to both bouts in question doesnt take too bad of a beating in the first one).

In this case, we had Chisora giving Vitali all he wanted in the early part of this year...then less than six months later, Haye totally dominating the same guy.

One cannot just ignore that.

And it is not idle speculation to make some educated guess about the nature of a future matchup because of it.

I am certain that if Haye and Vitali do meet soon, the Vegas oddsmakers will do exactly what you said we should not, and make Haye the favorite, especially if Vitali struggles with Charr like he did with Chisora.

And BTW, a certain megafight hoped for since 2009 hasn't happened yet...but given the recent performances of the two principals- especially the ones involving common opponents- interest in the bout may be changing a bit. It seems that based on folk's perception of the performance against common foes, many are now certain who would prevail.

Of course, you still want them to lace 'em up and see...

**GrantZilla** Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:47 pm

koolkc107 wrote:In this case, we had Chisora giving Vitali all he wanted in the early part of this year...then less than six months later, Haye totally dominating the same guy.

One cannot just ignore that.

Yes, you can. Vitali is a fucking dinosaur, with a history of injurries. He injurred himself in the Chisora fight. His next fight might very well be his last.

Add on, Vitali is 7 inches taller than Chisora. Chisora made himself harder to hit by crouching down. Where Haye and Chisora are realivaley the same size, and there isn't a huge height disparity. Again, styles makes fights.

One can not dismiss Haye's pathetic performance against Wlad.

koolkc107 Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:00 pm

GrantZilla wrote:
koolkc107 wrote:In this case, we had Chisora giving Vitali all he wanted in the early part of this year...then less than six months later, Haye totally dominating the same guy.

One cannot just ignore that.

Yes, you can. Vitali is a fucking dinosaur, with a history of injurries. He injurred himself in the Chisora fight. His next fight might very well be his last.

Add on, Vitali is 7 inches taller than Chisora. Chisora made himself harder to hit by crouching down. Where Haye and Chisora are realivaley the same size, and there isn't a huge height disparity. Again, styles makes fights.

One can not dismiss Haye's pathetic performance against Wlad.

I don't dismiss it. A toe is a toe and a shoulder is a shoulder.

Only each man knows what they could and could not have done with their respective injuries...and how do we know it wasn't Chisora's actions that caused Vitali's injury?

Bottomline- no excuses for anyone.

Yes styles make fights, but that doesn't mean you dismiss what your eyes and common sense tell you.

For example, Liston destroyed Patterson twice before running into Ali, who in turn destroyed Sonny. According to the styles make fights logic, Patterson could've still meant trouble for Ali; yet anyone could see that Floyd wouldn't be a problem for Muhammed- and he wasn't.

And more recently, we had Ward easily handle Kessler, while Froch got into a dogfight with Mikkel; the styles makes fights logic say a Ward-Froch tilt could be competitive, while our common sense let us know it would be a walk in the park for Andre- and it was.

Well, now my common sense tells me that if Haye has got over being intimidated by the brothers- and make no mistake he definitely was, if he isn't still- he can more than handle either one.

My common sense tells me this past weekend I might have been looking at the antidote for a Klitschko and that their reign may soon come to an end.

**UBeeg9cats** Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:13 pm

If I haven't done so, welcome to the board koolkc107.

koolkc107 Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:21 pm

UBeeg9cats wrote:If I haven't done so, welcome to the board koolkc107.

Thanks, man.

dbudge Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:38 pm

I believe haye has more of a chance beating vitali than he does beating wladimir. But I doubt that fight is ever gna happen

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