Haye the best Heavyweight?

haye is easy to dislike.his face is loaded with arragance like lennox lewis.a very punchable arragant face.of course that dislike or hatred on haye has been going on since the valuez fight.he did exactly what hollifield did only better.evander got praise haye was pissed on.he crushes chisora not once but twice.are we forgeting it took him 10 seconds and a left hook to drop chisora right after the vitali fight.now we unload bullshit excuses why chisora gave vitali a fight and of course why haye beat him with ease.yes haye the last 7 rounds of the fight haye gave a disgracefull performance by flopping against wlad.but he did not run..wlad said im going to punished this guy.he did shit also..so many on here including grant said wlads going to ko haye with a jab.after all both king kong brothers are so big huge reach awsome punch all thoses advantages including a million inch reach are reasons many said no one will touch them.
some even suggest because of there size they would crush several top heavies of the past.
now a mediocre fighter named chisora makes vitali look bad and out comes the excuses.he croched.he always does.didnt vitali prepare for that...
i watched the haye-chisora fight the other day and i can say haye could of and should of done better.he has the talent to do so..
thats the question in this topic.is he the best HW is the topic.no its wlad..haye can very well be number 2..overall talent he edges wlad.its close in that department weather any one likes it or not.wlads the better fighter.
theres of course no credit given haye for making wlad miss 75 percent of his great jab with simple head movement or very basic moving a step or so to the side.haye did fight a big disappointing fight.yet he visibly rocked wlad twice.hurt him..wlad fought his usual extra cautious fight.both did not do what they said they were going to do.fight.punish the guy.so please folks lets stop the junk of saying it was haye who stunk out the joint..yep he did.so did wlad.
now if vitali wants to fight a untested c type of fighter who will be anywhere from a 50-1 100-1 underdog fine.but lets not praise him for a easy win that everyone expects..
can haye beat vitali.yes he can and ive been saying he can for 3 or more years now..all he has to do is fight and use his talent.if he does the excuses will fly why vitali lost..if haye doesnt fight like i expect him then of course huge praise for vitali.
lets at least be honest here.haye can punch.theres no doubt about that.he comes in great shape.he can move and box.he has good hand speed.hes far bewtter then the rest of the palookas out there..hes either number 2 or 3 .lets hate him yes..his face is strll punchable..but lets give him credit that hes a decent heavyweight.a good fighter.whats wrong with that..oh by the way i hope vitali does fight him and im hoping haye dumps him inside 8...

koolkc107 wrote: For example, Liston destroyed Patterson twice before running into Ali, who in turn destroyed Sonny. According to the styles make fights logic, Patterson could've still meant trouble for Ali; yet anyone could see that Floyd wouldn't be a problem for Muhammed- and he wasn't.

What are you talking about? Liston destroyed Patterson twice within one round. Ali had to go 12 rounds against Patterson to get a TKO.

By you're logic, Liston should've destroyed Ali. Same way Foreman should've destroyed Ali. If you simply went off of common opponents.

koolkc107 wrote: And more recently, we had Ward easily handle Kessler, while Froch got into a dogfight with Mikkel; the styles makes fights logic say a Ward-Froch tilt could be competitive, while our common sense let us know it would be a walk in the park for Andre- and it was.

Dude, what kind of backwards logic do you run off of? If Ward easily beat a common opponent who Froch lost to in a slug fest, then the favorite going into the fight would be Ward if you simply went off of a common opponent. It turned out, Ward was the correct favorite that time.

But that's usually not the case. Take Margs-Mosley. Margs just beaten Cotto who Mosley lost to. So Margs was the favorite going into that fight. And we all know the outcome there.

OK this is pretty simple. Haye is flawed as hell, doesnt punch enough, and did nothing against Wlad. No matter what logic or spins we want to put on it the guy will never beat a Klit.

Oh and no way in hell Vitali is the better brother at this point in the Klits careers. Wlad is better technically, is faster and hits way harder. The only thing Vitali has over Wlad is a chin and that doesn't even matter because no one in the heavyweight division can get to Wlad's chin.

koolkc107 wrote:

GrantZilla wrote:

koolkc107 wrote:In this case, we had Chisora giving Vitali all he wanted in the early part of this year...then less than six months later, Haye totally dominating the same guy.

One cannot just ignore that.

Yes, you can. Vitali is a fucking dinosaur, with a history of injurries. He injurred himself in the Chisora fight. His next fight might very well be his last.

Add on, Vitali is 7 inches taller than Chisora. Chisora made himself harder to hit by crouching down. Where Haye and Chisora are realivaley the same size, and there isn't a huge height disparity. Again, styles makes fights.

One can not dismiss Haye's pathetic performance against Wlad.

I don't dismiss it. A toe is a toe and a shoulder is a shoulder.

Only each man knows what they could and could not have done with their respective injuries...and how do we know it wasn't Chisora's actions that caused Vitali's injury?

Bottomline- no excuses for anyone.

Yes styles make fights, but that doesn't mean you dismiss what your eyes and common sense tell you.

For example, Liston destroyed Patterson twice before running into Ali, who in turn destroyed Sonny. According to the styles make fights logic, Patterson could've still meant trouble for Ali; yet anyone could see that Floyd wouldn't be a problem for Muhammed- and he wasn't.

And more recently, we had Ward easily handle Kessler, while Froch got into a dogfight with Mikkel; the styles makes fights logic say a Ward-Froch tilt could be competitive, while our common sense let us know it would be a walk in the park for Andre- and it was.

Well, now my common sense tells me that if Haye has got over being intimidated by the brothers- and make no mistake he definitely was, if he isn't still- he can more than handle either one.

My common sense tells me this past weekend I might have been looking at the antidote for a Klitschko and that their reign may soon come to an end.

you are not making sense with the bolded section.

Logic didn't say that a Ward-Froch tilt could be competitve. Logic told us the opposite.

captainanddew wrote:

koolkc107 wrote:

GrantZilla wrote:

koolkc107 wrote:In this case, we had Chisora giving Vitali all he wanted in the early part of this year...then less than six months later, Haye totally dominating the same guy.

One cannot just ignore that.

Yes, you can. Vitali is a fucking dinosaur, with a history of injurries. He injurred himself in the Chisora fight. His next fight might very well be his last.

Add on, Vitali is 7 inches taller than Chisora. Chisora made himself harder to hit by crouching down. Where Haye and Chisora are realivaley the same size, and there isn't a huge height disparity. Again, styles makes fights.

One can not dismiss Haye's pathetic performance against Wlad.

I don't dismiss it. A toe is a toe and a shoulder is a shoulder.

Only each man knows what they could and could not have done with their respective injuries...and how do we know it wasn't Chisora's actions that caused Vitali's injury?

Bottomline- no excuses for anyone.

Yes styles make fights, but that doesn't mean you dismiss what your eyes and common sense tell you.

For example, Liston destroyed Patterson twice before running into Ali, who in turn destroyed Sonny. According to the styles make fights logic, Patterson could've still meant trouble for Ali; yet anyone could see that Floyd wouldn't be a problem for Muhammed- and he wasn't.

And more recently, we had Ward easily handle Kessler, while Froch got into a dogfight with Mikkel; the styles makes fights logic say a Ward-Froch tilt could be competitive, while our common sense let us know it would be a walk in the park for Andre- and it was.

Well, now my common sense tells me that if Haye has got over being intimidated by the brothers- and make no mistake he definitely was, if he isn't still- he can more than handle either one.

My common sense tells me this past weekend I might have been looking at the antidote for a Klitschko and that their reign may soon come to an end.

you are not making sense with the bolded section.

Logic didn't say that a Ward-Froch tilt could be competitve. Logic told us the opposite.

Two types of logic in question here.

1) The "styles make fights" logic, which de-emphasizes common opponents, instead relying on the perceived fighter assets and debits to speculate.

or

2) The "recent common opponent" logic, which says that, more than style, seeing what both men did to a common foe is the better way to predict.

Both types have flaws, while both can be useful.

The "styles makes fights" logic would have Ward-Froch a tight contest, with Andre's technical superiority balanced somewhat by Carl's power and his underrated skill. Indeed, you had many folks predicting a close fight before what actually happened using this reasoning. But using the common opponent- in this case Kessler- as a gauge proved more accurate. Those of us who drew our conclusions based on how Andre dominated Kessler while Carl struggled with him were vindicated in that particular instance.

Of course, others can and have discussed fights where the former logic worked as well.

My point in this thread- while freely admitting it is flawed- is that the latter logic may be the more appropriate when speculating on Haye versus Vitali (who I think can still kick his brother's arse).

GrantZilla wrote:

koolkc107 wrote: For example, Liston destroyed Patterson twice before running into Ali, who in turn destroyed Sonny. According to the styles make fights logic, Patterson could've still meant trouble for Ali; yet anyone could see that Floyd wouldn't be a problem for Muhammed- and he wasn't.

What are you talking about? Liston destroyed Patterson twice within one round. Ali had to go 12 rounds against Patterson to get a TKO.

By you're logic, Liston should've destroyed Ali. Same way Foreman should've destroyed Ali. If you simply went off of common opponents.

koolkc107 wrote: And more recently, we had Ward easily handle Kessler, while Froch got into a dogfight with Mikkel; the styles makes fights logic say a Ward-Froch tilt could be competitive, while our common sense let us know it would be a walk in the park for Andre- and it was.

Dude, what kind of backwards logic do you run off of? If Ward easily beat a common opponent who Froch lost to in a slug fest, then the favorite going into the fight would be Ward if you simply went off of a common opponent. It turned out, Ward was the correct favorite that time.

But that's usually not the case. Take Margs-Mosley. Margs just beaten Cotto who Mosley lost to. So Margs was the favorite going into that fight. And we all know the outcome there.

Grant,
Ali toyed with Patterson; he could've KOed Floyd easily. Instead he chose to punish him for a perceived slight.

And if the "common recent opponent" logic worked in Froch-Ward (as it does in many cases) why are you calling it "backwards"?

Haye probably loses to Adamek or Fat Eddie...seriously....

koolkc107 wrote:And if the "common recent opponent" logic worked in Froch-Ward (as it does in many cases) why are you calling it "backwards"?

Going off of just common opponent doesn't work in most cases. As said, Liston destroyed Patterson. Everyone expected Liston to steamroll over Ali. It didn't work that way. Same goes with Foreman. People thought Ali would get killed against Foreman. Foreman destroyed two opponents Ali lost to.

Vernon Forest defeated Mosley twice. Forest then lost to Mayorga twice. Mosley then spanked Mayorga.

If you went off of common opponents, Pac would spank Sergio Martinez, since Pac dominated Margarito, who Martinez lost too.

If went off common opponents, Hatton should've beat Mayweather since Hatton got a TKO win over Castillio and Mayweather went 24 rounds against Castillo. The first fight many think Mayweather lost.

using common opponents can be a basis, but thats about it. first off, you have to look at skill level. the higher skill level fighter will win most of the time. styles do make fights though. that is the second thing. lets say for example that george foreman came back at his old age and KO'd both klit brothers. after that, he lost 5 in a row to other various HWs. i wouldnt say that foreman is the best in the division. i would say that he had the style to beat the klits but that was about it.

history is full of examples of these scenarios. they are called upsets. things like that happen.

the problem with your styles make fights is Haye's history against much taller fighters and the type of styles that give Vitali fits.

Haye vs Valuev-Haye throws 13 punches a round. Less than that in the first 11 rounds. He only engages when he catches Valuev in the 12th. Bothered greatly by the height and reach difference.

Haye vs Wlad-Haye starts by not throwing enough punches. After getting hit with 1 right hand he stops throwing punches. Bothered greatly by the height and reach difference.

Haye vs Vitali-Haye will start off trying. If Vitali lands a few good shots he will begin to retreat. He will be bothered greatly by the height and reach difference.

Styles make fights logic isn't working for Haye vs Vitali.

The type of styles that will give Vitali trouble (from his career); a HW as big as him with a better jab (Lennox) or a bob and weave swarmer (chisora did that well against Vitali).

The argument to be made is that Vitali is 40 yrs old and often injured. He has lost a fight because of injury (Byrd). He retired because of injury and sat for 4 yrs. He was injured in his last fight. Vitali's reflexes could go at any moment at his age as well.

That is the argument. It is one that is compelling to me, even though I probably still pick Vitali to win.

GrantZilla wrote:

koolkc107 wrote:And if the "common recent opponent" logic worked in Froch-Ward (as it does in many cases) why are you calling it "backwards"?

Going off of just common opponent doesn't work in most cases. As said, Liston destroyed Patterson. Everyone expected Liston to steamroll over Ali. It didn't work that way. Same goes with Foreman. People thought Ali would get killed against Foreman. Foreman destroyed two opponents Ali lost to.

Vernon Forest defeated Mosley twice. Forest then lost to Mayorga twice. Mosley then spanked Mayorga.

If you went off of common opponents, Pac would spank Sergio Martinez, since Pac dominated Margarito, who Martinez lost too.

If went off common opponents, Hatton should've beat Mayweather since Hatton got a TKO win over Castillio and Mayweather went 24 rounds against Castillo. The first fight many think Mayweather lost.

The "recent common opponent" logic didn't apply to Ali-Liston because Ali had not fought Patterson yet. The same thing blows your other examples out of the water as well (the imagined Pac-Martinez tilt would have no recent common opponent; nor does recent apply in the other examples of Mayweather-Hatton or Mosley-Mayorga.

I find the "recent common opponent" can and does work as well as any other form of speculating on fights, provided it is recent and that the fighters involved are not too damaged or otherwise diminished from the prior fights.

Vitali fought Chisora THIS year, struggled with him less than 6 months before Haye totally dismantled Delboy.

So, HELL NO, I don't want to hear about styles make fights if Vitali and Haye meet early next year...David should beat Vitali based on their recent performances against the SAME fighter.

captainanddew wrote:the problem with your styles make fights is Haye's history against much taller fighters and the type of styles that give Vitali fits.

Haye vs Valuev-Haye throws 13 punches a round. Less than that in the first 11 rounds. He only engages when he catches Valuev in the 12th. Bothered greatly by the height and reach difference.

Haye vs Wlad-Haye starts by not throwing enough punches. After getting hit with 1 right hand he stops throwing punches. Bothered greatly by the height and reach difference.

Haye vs Vitali-Haye will start off trying. If Vitali lands a few good shots he will begin to retreat. He will be bothered greatly by the height and reach difference.

Styles make fights logic isn't working for Haye vs Vitali.

The type of styles that will give Vitali trouble (from his career); a HW as big as him with a better jab (Lennox) or a bob and weave swarmer (chisora did that well against Vitali).

The argument to be made is that Vitali is 40 yrs old and often injured. He has lost a fight because of injury (Byrd). He retired because of injury and sat for 4 yrs. He was injured in his last fight. Vitali's reflexes could go at any moment at his age as well.

That is the argument. It is one that is compelling to me, even though I probably still pick Vitali to win.

Now that is what I call a reasoned rebuttal.

Your are right, styles makes fights doesn't predict well for Haye; but the recent common opponent says the opposite.

And dont you think that, if Haye has gotten over crapping his pants every time he sees a Klitschko, he can use a variation of the second style you talked about that bothers Vitali? Can't he employ his speed and athleticism to get lower and to swarm in and out in spots? Go "Sweet Pea vs. Chavez" on Vitali?

captain i have to disagree with your thoughts that haye will have problems with vitali because of height and reach advantages or even wlad to the point that he was bothered greatly..wlad did not hit haye at all with his jab dispite the fact haye stood in the pocket most of the fight.why haye stoped punching i dont know but its not the reach advantage which is only 3 inches.a 3 inch height advantage isnt that great.harrison had a 8 inch reach advantage and is a half inch shorter then wlad.vitali has a 1 inch reach advantage and with closed fists maybe a small advantage actualy belongs to haye.
with valuez its a different story.he outweighed haye by 100 pounds.had a 11 inch height advantage.a 7 inch reach advantage yet haye won the fight.haye fought a boring but smart fight.he won dispite huge advantages over haye in height weight reach.so how is he bothered by that.he fought smart to overcome all advantages that valuez had.again hollifield was given praise by fighting the same fight haye did only haye did it better.
why haye is not active in punching i dont know.he has a history i feel of balance problems.maybe thats why.against fraudley the only other tall guy with a reach advantage that i can think of there was zero problems..even though he had thoses advantages he fought scared and haye still did not have a big punch output.
why haye doesnt pull the trigger more i dont know but its not the reach advantage or height advantage at all.

hillsicc303 wrote:Haye probably loses to Adamek or Fat Eddie...seriously....

Wow, really? I can't see that at all. A few years back I thought Adamek v. Haye (even at LH or Cruiser) was a great fight that never happened. Now I tend to think Haye takes him out. Chambers I can't see beating Haye either, but you never know.

Tobe wrote:

hillsicc303 wrote:Haye probably loses to Adamek or Fat Eddie...seriously....

Wow, really? I can't see that at all. A few years back I thought Adamek v. Haye (even at LH or Cruiser) was a great fight that never happened. Now I tend to think Haye takes him out. Chambers I can't see beating Haye either, but you never know.

I absolutely paid that no mind when Hillsicc first posted it.

But now I will go in for a bit.

Adamek had all sort of problems with Chamber's speed and skill, maybe even shoulda lost that fight. So he is going to beat a guy who is even faster than Chambers and has pop to boot?

And how much respect will Eddie demand from Haye if they were ever to fight? For Chamber's sake it had better be plenty or David will do to him exactly what he did to Chisora most likely.

haye should beat adamek inside 12.chambers if in shape can be a jimmy young type of cutie.he will give haye a tougher fight then adamek.

hillsicc303 wrote:Haye probably loses to Adamek or Fat Eddie...seriously....

Are you kidding me Haye would mop the floor with Adamek.

dmar5143 wrote:haye should beat adamek inside 12.chambers if in shape can be a jimmy young type of cutie.he will give haye a tougher fight then adamek.

It doesn't go past five rounds !! Vitali had him on queer street in round one and he's not nearly as powerful or as explosive as Haye's shots are.

Ali wrote:

hillsicc303 wrote:Haye probably loses to Adamek or Fat Eddie...seriously....

Are you kidding me Haye would mop the floor with Adamek.

That would be a close fight. I think Chris Arreola would beat Haye.

dmar5143 wrote:captain i have to disagree with your thoughts that haye will have problems with vitali because of height and reach advantages or even wlad to the point that he was bothered greatly..wlad did not hit haye at all with his jab dispite the fact haye stood in the pocket most of the fight.why haye stoped punching i dont know but its not the reach advantage which is only 3 inches.a 3 inch height advantage isnt that great.harrison had a 8 inch reach advantage and is a half inch shorter then wlad.vitali has a 1 inch reach advantage and with closed fists maybe a small advantage actualy belongs to haye.
with valuez its a different story.he outweighed haye by 100 pounds.had a 11 inch height advantage.a 7 inch reach advantage yet haye won the fight.haye fought a boring but smart fight.he won dispite huge advantages over haye in height weight reach.so how is he bothered by that.he fought smart to overcome all advantages that valuez had.again hollifield was given praise by fighting the same fight haye did only haye did it better.
why haye is not active in punching i dont know.he has a history i feel of balance problems.maybe thats why.against fraudley the only other tall guy with a reach advantage that i can think of there was zero problems..even though he had thoses advantages he fought scared and haye still did not have a big punch output.
why haye doesnt pull the trigger more i dont know but its not the reach advantage or height advantage at all.

Haye's manager and TRAINER, Booth told Steve Bunce on Bunce's radio show that around the 4th or 5th round, Wlad hit Haye clean with a right hand. After that right hand, Haye didn't show aggression.

I thought when I heart this on I tunes I had to be crazy. I listed to it about 5 times. Booth admitted that one right hand changed the fight and changed how Haye viewed the fight as it was occurring.

As for Haye being in the pocket. I disagree. He was not in the pocket most of the fight. And when he was in the pocket his defense was to duck under shots with his head down.

Ali wrote:

hillsicc303 wrote:Haye probably loses to Adamek or Fat Eddie...seriously....

Are you kidding me Haye would mop the floor with Adamek.

watching Adamek's last couple of fights, he doesn't look good.

Bottom line is, to make the bold statement on Haye being the best HW because of a win over the likes of Chisora is absurd. Last I checked, Vitali got the win as well.

Outside the whole style makes fight argument, you are dismissing Vitali's age, him likely suffering a injurry during the fight, which he has a history of doing. And also, Vitali has never been a one punch KO artist. He does not weild the kind of power his brother has.

Vitali's high KO rate has come from a high, accurate, punch output that overwhelms opponents and leads to stoppages.

For example, Vitali's stoppage against Arreola. In 10 rounds, Vitali threw 801 punches to Arreola's 331. That's insane for a HW Vitali's size and age. That's 80 punches a round. That's more punches than Haye has thrown in his entire HW career.

Haye has great power and great speed at HW, but his boxing skills aren't that good. Plus he has chin and stamina issues. He blew out Chisora, but there's four other guys that can do that in the same weight class. Haye just has a big mouth and makes some m people believe he can do more than he really can in reality. If he ever faces anyone that can punch again, expect him to fight like a coward again. He will not engage and will the just run and flop like he did against Wlad. Haye is afraid of big punchers. He's not mentally tough like the Klitschkos or Arreola. He's like the Amir Khan of the HWs.

dmar5143 wrote:captain i have to disagree with your thoughts that haye will have problems with vitali because of height and reach advantages or even wlad to the point that he was bothered greatly..wlad did not hit haye at all with his jab dispite the fact haye stood in the pocket most of the fight.why haye stoped punching i dont know but its not the reach advantage which is only 3 inches.a 3 inch height advantage isnt that great.harrison had a 8 inch reach advantage and is a half inch shorter then wlad.vitali has a 1 inch reach advantage and with closed fists maybe a small advantage actualy belongs to haye.
with valuez its a different story.he outweighed haye by 100 pounds.had a 11 inch height advantage.a 7 inch reach advantage yet haye won the fight.haye fought a boring but smart fight.he won dispite huge advantages over haye in height weight reach.so how is he bothered by that.he fought smart to overcome all advantages that valuez had.again hollifield was given praise by fighting the same fight haye did only haye did it better.
why haye is not active in punching i dont know.he has a history i feel of balance problems.maybe thats why.against fraudley the only other tall guy with a reach advantage that i can think of there was zero problems..even though he had thoses advantages he fought scared and haye still did not have a big punch output.
why haye doesnt pull the trigger more i dont know but its not the reach advantage or height advantage at all.

Stayed in the pocket? Are you kidding me? Haye ran around the outside of Wlad the whole fight. If Wlad had even an inkling how to cut off the ring he KO's Haye. For the last time...Haye only engages against guys he knows he can beat. He will run from Vitali too.

flapanther2001 wrote:

dmar5143 wrote:captain i have to disagree with your thoughts that haye will have problems with vitali because of height and reach advantages or even wlad to the point that he was bothered greatly..wlad did not hit haye at all with his jab dispite the fact haye stood in the pocket most of the fight.why haye stoped punching i dont know but its not the reach advantage which is only 3 inches.a 3 inch height advantage isnt that great.harrison had a 8 inch reach advantage and is a half inch shorter then wlad.vitali has a 1 inch reach advantage and with closed fists maybe a small advantage actualy belongs to haye.
with valuez its a different story.he outweighed haye by 100 pounds.had a 11 inch height advantage.a 7 inch reach advantage yet haye won the fight.haye fought a boring but smart fight.he won dispite huge advantages over haye in height weight reach.so how is he bothered by that.he fought smart to overcome all advantages that valuez had.again hollifield was given praise by fighting the same fight haye did only haye did it better.
why haye is not active in punching i dont know.he has a history i feel of balance problems.maybe thats why.against fraudley the only other tall guy with a reach advantage that i can think of there was zero problems..even though he had thoses advantages he fought scared and haye still did not have a big punch output.
why haye doesnt pull the trigger more i dont know but its not the reach advantage or height advantage at all.

Stayed in the pocket? Are you kidding me? Haye ran around the outside of Wlad the whole fight. If Wlad had even an inkling how to cut off the ring he KO's Haye. For the last time...Haye only engages against guys he knows he can beat. He will run from Vitali too.

wlad had 2 big issues in that fight:
1-he doesn't have a clue how to cut off the ring
2-he doesn't know how to throw punches lower. He throws everything at the same height. When a guy is going to duck down constantly then you have to aim right where Haye's chest was and then he would have hit the head. But he kept aiming at the head and Haye would just duck down.