My thoughts of PAC and JMM

first off, let me just say that i predicted a 6th round KO by JMM so im very proud at the moment that i called it perfectly. haha.

i thought that this fight was pac's most dominant in the series. i was thinking to myself that JMM has slowed a bit and pac is just too fast. even with the KD, pac seemed to recover well and then knocked down JMM and hurt him after that. when pac got dropped i didnt realize that he was out. i was thinking that he fell after the bell and that the KD wasnt going to count. i then realized that he was out and i celebrated. i was so happy that JMM finally took matter into his own hands and won the fight.

anyways, my point is that both fighters are about done. JMM isnt what he used to be. he is 39 so that is expected. he has nothing left to prove. its a good way to end his career. i dont want to see a fifth fight because by that time, they will both be even more on the decline which will mean absolutely nothing to me. either person who won a fifth fight would really do nothing for their legacy at all. i guess it would all be about pride if they wanted the fight though.

there isnt much left for pac to do either. he is on the decline and is not going to beat floyd so i wouldnt even try. that fight isnt at all worth what it once was so if he was just looking for money, he could take many other easy fights to make money. he is done at the top of the sport.

great fight and i loved the result but both of these fighters are done. i would hope that they would both retire but im sure they wont and will fight way past their best.

First off I'll say that that was a great fight and my fight of the year. I enjoyed it a lot, more than any other fight of theirs. I couldn't believe how good Pacquiao looked in the early rounds and then bam! Big right hand by Marquez. I honestly couldn't believe that Pacquiao went down. That guy is like godzilla with his amazing chin. Then they start trading and Marquez is getting wreckless, so I'm not surprised when Marquez goes down in the next round (well touches down but he was hurt bad later with a right hook as well). Then it looks like Pac is busting him up with the left hand for the next couple of rounds and I'm thinking ko for Pacquiao when all of a sudden bam! Huge right hand for Marquez and my joy over how the fight is going just quenches as Pacman's body falls in a heap on the canvas.

That was one of the scariest kos I've ever seen. I've never been more afraid for a fighter in my life. Not Ricky Hatton, not Paul Williams not anybody. It was so shocking I never thought he could get knocked out again. The man has an iron chin and for Marquez to do that to him is amazing. Stone cold amazing.

Honestly right now I think both guys should retire. Marquez did what he wanted but hes slowed down. His reflexes aren't what they were and he was very tentative although I suppose that was part of the game plan just being patient.

Pacquiao I'm scared for him now. It seems like hes going to fight on and wants a fight with Marquez again but I don't wanna see that happen to him again. Hes a warrior, they both are.

The thing that I think I enjoyed most about the whole thing is the moment afterwards where they're both in the ring and Marquez tells Pacquiao "you're a great fighter" and Pacquiao is congratulating him. That was a classy moment and it was great to see how much they both respected each other. Anyway this was one of the most enjoyable evenings of boxing I've ever had so great stuff from everybody involved.

Pac will retire. He has slipped BADLY and in each of his last few fights it has been obvious. It was more obvious watching him in training. He simply does not have the "in and out" speed his whirlwind style is predicated on. The natural athletic gifts that made him so dynamic have fallen prey to father time. This fight reminded me of Roy Jones Jr. vs Bernard Hopkins II. Both fighters were shaded, but the one fighter with the superior skill and technique, was able to beat a guy whos athletic gifts and skills made him too tough to handle in previous fights.

boxinglawyer wrote: Pac will retire. He has slipped BADLY and in each of his last few fights it has been obvious. It was more obvious watching him in training. He simply does not have the "in and out" speed his whirlwind style is predicated on. The natural athletic gifts that made him so dynamic have fallen prey to father time. This fight reminded me of Roy Jones Jr. vs Bernard Hopkins II. Both fighters were shaded, but the one fighter with the superior skill and technique, was able to beat a guy whos athletic gifts and skills made him too tough to handle in previous fights.

Before the fight Boxinglawyer I felt that Pac was slipping big time. He looked bad against Mosley, bad against Marquez and bad against Bradley, a guy he should have been able to knock out. I will say that after watching the third fight with Marquez again the other day he looked better than I remembered but that neither here nor there. My point is I thought Pac was just nowhere near the fighter he once was but to be honest he looked really good to me last night up until the knockdown by JMM. He seemed more energetic to me than in previous fights of late and was nailing Marquez with the left a lot. Even after the knockdown he looked like the better fighter again and seemed like he was on his way to stopping Juan.

In the first round I said to myself JMM's reflexes are gone and he can't pull the trigger anymore. His reflexes aren't totally gone but they're not what they once were and it turns out that his low volume of punching may have been part of the gameplan. He was targeting the body and not getting over eager which is what happened after the first knockdown and allowed Pac to nearly take him out in the 4th or 5th.

Anyway I think Pacquiao looked great last night, obviously not his best because hes past that but the best he has in years imo. He just fell prey to an excellent game plan and great fighter in Juan Manuel Marquez. I wish he would retire now because he has nothing left to prove but apparently hes going to fight on. I don't think we'll really know what he has left until (if) he fights again. My guess is hes not gonna be the same despite his good performance in defeat last night.

It almost feels like that was supposed to be one of those fights where the great old warrior turns back the clock one more time and upsets the odds (for me anyway because I didn't favour him in this fight) but JMM fought such a great fight that he just couldn't do it. Thats how I feel anyway. Great fight again.

i argee fully with PP and BL.

Ok since I have sobered up a bit I will tell you guys what I thought about how they looked last night

Pac looked fast last night. I know everyone thinks he is done because of the KO. If I am being honest that KO was just an amazing punch. It was perfect. Jmm landed the one big shot no one thought he could land (except for PP and Dmar) LOL

If I am being honest and not letting the KO cloud my judgement I thought Pac looked better against JMM than he ever has outside of the first round they fought. I really thought Pac was going to KO him. He looked faster in this fight than he did against Bradley and I dont think he is done. I just think he got caught. Do I think he can beat Mayweather right now? NO. But everyone else? Probably.

JMM didnt look like a guy who could keep up last night and because of the smart fighter that he is he knew it. So to be honest he started loading up on punches (rewatch that first kd, he loaded up on that puch). GREAT move by him. I thought he looked a lot bigger than he ever has. Congrats on his training camp. They did a great job. Nothing else to say about JMM.

Everything else has already been said last night. Those are just a few things that I noticed that I didnt get out at the time. Too busy being absolutely shocked

Soonermark890 wrote:Ok since I have sobered up a bit I will tell you guys what I thought about how they looked last night

Pac looked fast last night. I know everyone thinks he is done because of the KO. If I am being honest that KO was just an amazing punch. It was perfect. Jmm landed the one big shot no one thought he could land (except for PP and Dmar) LOL

If I am being honest and not letting the KO cloud my judgement I thought Pac looked better against JMM than he ever has outside of the first round they fought. I really thought Pac was going to KO him. He looked faster in this fight than he did against Bradley and I dont think he is done. I just think he got caught. Do I think he can beat Mayweather right now? NO. But everyone else? Probably.

JMM didnt look like a guy who could keep up last night and because of the smart fighter that he is he knew it. So to be honest he started loading up on punches (rewatch that first kd, he loaded up on that puch). GREAT move by him. I thought he looked a lot bigger than he ever has. Congrats on his training camp. They did a great job. Nothing else to say about JMM.

Everything else has already been said last night. Those are just a few things that I noticed that I didnt get out at the time. Too busy being absolutely shocked

I agree with this. Pacquaio was looking great until he got dropped in the 3rd and stopped in the 6th. I had Pacquiao winning the 1,2,4,5 and he was winning the 6th until he got KOed in the last few seconds. Pacquiao was way too quick for Marquez who looked like the lost a step in this fight. He couldn't keep up with Pacquiaos speed, and I believe it had to do with Marquez getting too muscular during training. Marquez clearly sacrificed his speed for strength and it did work out because he got the KO, but Manny was beating him up in there. Manny didn't lose a step. He easily beat Bradley and was beating Marquez till the stoppage. Pacquiao looked good against Mosley who he couldnt KO because the guy ran for 12 rounds. Manny is still Manny, he just got caught with an amazing punch.

Diego408 wrote:

Soonermark890 wrote:Ok since I have sobered up a bit I will tell you guys what I thought about how they looked last night

Pac looked fast last night. I know everyone thinks he is done because of the KO. If I am being honest that KO was just an amazing punch. It was perfect. Jmm landed the one big shot no one thought he could land (except for PP and Dmar) LOL

If I am being honest and not letting the KO cloud my judgement I thought Pac looked better against JMM than he ever has outside of the first round they fought. I really thought Pac was going to KO him. He looked faster in this fight than he did against Bradley and I dont think he is done. I just think he got caught. Do I think he can beat Mayweather right now? NO. But everyone else? Probably.

JMM didnt look like a guy who could keep up last night and because of the smart fighter that he is he knew it. So to be honest he started loading up on punches (rewatch that first kd, he loaded up on that puch). GREAT move by him. I thought he looked a lot bigger than he ever has. Congrats on his training camp. They did a great job. Nothing else to say about JMM.

Everything else has already been said last night. Those are just a few things that I noticed that I didnt get out at the time. Too busy being absolutely shocked

I agree with this. Pacquaio was looking great until he got dropped in the 3rd and stopped in the 6th. I had Pacquiao winning the 1,2,4,5 and he was winning the 6th until he got KOed in the last few seconds. Pacquiao was way too quick for Marquez who looked like the lost a step in this fight. He couldn't keep up with Pacquiaos speed, and I believe it had to do with Marquez getting too muscular during training. Marquez clearly sacrificed his speed for strength and it did work out because he got the KO, but Manny was beating him up in there. Manny didn't lose a step. He easily beat Bradley and was beating Marquez till the stoppage. Pacquiao looked good against Mosley who he couldnt KO because the guy ran for 12 rounds. Manny is still Manny, he just got caught with an amazing punch.

im with you. I think we sometimes overreact as boxing fans. PAC is still a top 3 p4p guy and it will show in his next outing

He was looking really good guys but theres a good chance that punch took a lot out of him. He may not be the same fighter anymore. I guess we won't know until he fights again.

sooner after the ko i feel pac is no where near a top 3 p4pder..floyd ward martinez now marquez yes donaire maybe mares all deserve higher.im sure a fighter koed like that has returned to form i just cant think of any.johanson rex layne hatton wiliams liston are a few koed in a similar fashion and were never the same..wait stanley ketchell was one that did.
i hope pac listens to his wife his mother who i think will be against another fight or more.i think roach is even reserving judgement untill pac tries some training again.if he continues to fight the possibilty of that happening again or a bad beatdown is more real then a return of the old pac.the downhill slide started a few fights ago and this fight advanced it a lot.
the key is for him to recognize and accept that.when a fighter like pac starts becoming more of a catcher then a picture its time.

dmar5143 wrote:sooner after the ko i feel pac is no where near a top 3 p4pder..floyd ward martinez now marquez yes donaire maybe mares all deserve higher.im sure a fighter koed like that has returned to form i just cant think of any.johanson rex layne hatton wiliams liston are a few koed in a similar fashion and were never the same..wait stanley ketchell was one that did.
i hope pac listens to his wife his mother who i think will be against another fight or more.i think roach is even reserving judgement untill pac tries some training again.if he continues to fight the possibilty of that happening again or a bad beatdown is more real then a return of the old pac.the downhill slide started a few fights ago and this fight advanced it a lot.
the key is for him to recognize and accept that.when a fighter like pac starts becoming more of a catcher then a picture its time.

i can list a fighter who has been kod like that and he then became a ring magazine champ

Wlad klit

Soonermark890 wrote:

dmar5143 wrote:sooner after the ko i feel pac is no where near a top 3 p4pder..floyd ward martinez now marquez yes donaire maybe mares all deserve higher.im sure a fighter koed like that has returned to form i just cant think of any.johanson rex layne hatton wiliams liston are a few koed in a similar fashion and were never the same..wait stanley ketchell was one that did.
i hope pac listens to his wife his mother who i think will be against another fight or more.i think roach is even reserving judgement untill pac tries some training again.if he continues to fight the possibilty of that happening again or a bad beatdown is more real then a return of the old pac.the downhill slide started a few fights ago and this fight advanced it a lot.
the key is for him to recognize and accept that.when a fighter like pac starts becoming more of a catcher then a picture its time.

i can list a fighter who has been kod like that and he then became a ring magazine champ

Wlad klit

Yeah but Wlad was never kayoed out cold in a heap. Paul Williams wasn't the same after Martinez starched him in 2. I think it'll be the same for Pac.

no wlad wasnt koed like that..out cold.no movement.you can count to 100...all thoses i mentioned all had that happen to them.

dmar5143 wrote:no wlad wasnt koed like that..out cold.no movement.you can count to 100...all thoses i mentioned all had that happen to them.

at the same time after sanders everyone said he was done then he got rocked by Brewster and they really said his chin would never be the same. Now look at him. I'm not saying you guys are wrong or anything just that its happened. Not sure though about the one punch thing I will have to think about it

Pac is not the same. He hasnt been for a while and I have been saying it. Not to say that Marquez is either, but he has ALWAYS been the better tactical and technical fighter. Those guys hold up to father time better than athletic fighters do.
Pacs handspeed is still awesome, but it is his FOOTSPEED that has left him. He always has used his legs to get in close quickly and to get crazy leverage on his punches from crazy angles. Its just not there anymore. He can summon it for bursts now and again, but its not auto-matic like it used to be. It has showed up in his sparring more than anything to me.
Still, I do think he was on the verge of stopping JMM last night. 5th fight? I hope not. Then again, these guys deserve the kind of cash they could make for that. Who am I to say no..........

I honestly did not know how this fight was going to go. I made the prediction in the Immortals thread that I had a sneaking suspicion that it wasn't going 12. I felt good about that coming true but I still had it a 50-50 fight. Pac looked better than recent fights and JMM got his revenge with the perfect shot. JMM wouldn't have been able to last through 8 if the 7th and 8th had gone the way 5th and 2:57 of the 6th went. I had the random thought today about how furious JMM would have been if that punch came about 3 seconds later. That would have resulted in a DQ for knocking Pac out cold.

Some points going forward. First point is there isn't much left for either one. They both have slowed down to the point other fighters might be able to legitimately beat them. Rios and Bradley are there for either one and Mayweather is there for Pac. Alexander, Ghost (if not fighting Mayweather), Brook, Garcia, Khan and Paulie could all in theory earn the right against one of them. Problem is they are all GBP or Euro fighters. Second point is the 5th fight could be the most important, legacy-defining fight of the bunch because of a strange technicality. The 5th fight could easily be for the Ring championship if done before Mayweather-Guerrero fight. That would be the crowning achievement for either guy. Third point is which young fighter is going to capture the imagination and PPV crowd soon. Broner, Canelo, Guerrero, Donaire, or Ward must do it soon because Cotto and Pac just lost. Money will lose soon or retire too. The Klitschkos are getting old. Someone in the next generation has to make the push in 2013. Here's hoping Ward and Ghost can get some fans behind them with some good wins next year.

I'm still a little distraught over last night too. My thoughts might not be coherent yet I wasn't going to be shocked by a JMM KO until the 5th and 6th changed my perspective. I wanted that win for Pac really badly.

I think it's crazy for people to call for Manny to retire. He's still a top fighter and would start favourite in many fights. He'd still beat Bradley.

freakzilla wrote:I think it's crazy for people to call for Manny to retire. He's still a top fighter and would start favourite in many fights. He'd still beat Bradley.

Yes, he is still a top 10 P4P guy and there is no one 147 on down that would end up being a massive favorite against him outside of Floyd. However, he has accomplished all that he seemingly could and a KO like that stays with guys physically but more importantly mentally. He probably still needs the money is the problem with retirement. Bradley, Rios, Pac, and Marquez could have a nice 4 person tournament. Several people have already stated that exact thing or something similar. I would have Pac-JMM 5 and Rios-Bradley on the same card building up to it but Bobfather won't do that.

so the question is how much of the fight was that marquez has just slowed a lot and how much of it was his gameplan? i do believe that pac has slowed but like everyone has said, he was beating marquez to the punch most of the fight. for me, it was easily the best that pac has done against marquez for that many rounds straight. i think that marquez is done though. he obviously had a ton of desire to beat pac and probably trained extremely hard for the fight. i just cant imagine his desire against someone like rios would at all be the same. so i think that marquez will probably lose his next fight if its against a legit opponent.

pac still has enough in the tank to beat most fighters. i think that some fighters who never had a shot at beating him now have a legit chance at beating him. i guess we will see how that punch effected him. it seems like most fighters become very passive after a KO like that which would not be good for pac because then his style would be thrown off.

Can't believe I missed this. I will definitely be watching and rewatching the replay on Saturday.