Roy Jones Jr vs Suger Ray Robinson at 175 (who wins?)

Would Robinson and his skill level have been able to handle the size difference and overcome RJJ? Both fighting at their best.

Not even a fair match-up. SRR best weight was Welter. He wasn't even a legit sized middleweight.

fight night jones weighs 185 robinson a natural real middleweight goes in at 157 like he did for maxim.thats 28 pounds for smaller guys.jones as a fighter cant shine rays shoes...lets compare same size fighters ..hows jones at 185 do against marciano at 184 or dempsey at 190 .he gets his ass koed with the first punch hes hit with which will take one or 2 rounds.
hows he do against tunney and gene weighs 175-180..he gets koed and taken to school.ditto charles at 185....hows jones at 160 fight night go against robinson since roy was supposed to be a middle for some years.make him realy make the weight..robby clobbers him.
these guys are not cab drivers part time cops or bartenders ...jones had a career avoiding the top fighters in his day that cant compare to these guys.he made so many mistakes in the ring and he would pay against masters of the art.
hows roy at 175 fight night do against bob foster..he wont touch foster.at 168 fight night against billy conn or harry greb.or sam langford.
those guys are no tarver who actualy beat roy 3 times or no glen johnson etc etc.

hes fighting guys here that realy know how to fight..master technitions.roy did not know how to fight.period.you can oohh and ahhh over jones athletisizm then say what happened as they fieght him out of his jock strap and lower the boom on him.

Who did RJJ duck from his peak days?

dmar5143 wrote:fight night jones weighs 185 robinson a natural real middleweight goes in at 157 like he did for maxim.thats 28 pounds for smaller guys.jones as a fighter cant shine rays shoes...lets compare same size fighters ..hows jones at 185 do against marciano at 184 or dempsey at 190 .he gets his ass koed with the first punch hes hit with which will take one or 2 rounds.
hows he do against tunney and gene weighs 175-180..he gets koed and taken to school.ditto charles at 185....hows jones at 160 fight night go against robinson since roy was supposed to be a middle for some years.make him realy make the weight..robby clobbers him.
these guys are not cab drivers part time cops or bartenders ...jones had a career avoiding the top fighters in his day that cant compare to these guys.he made so many mistakes in the ring and he would pay against masters of the art.
hows roy at 175 fight night do against bob foster..he wont touch foster.at 168 fight night against billy conn or harry greb.or sam langford.
those guys are no tarver who actualy beat roy 3 times or no glen johnson etc etc.

hes fighting guys here that realy know how to fight..master technitions.roy did not know how to fight.period.you can oohh and ahhh over jones athletisizm then say what happened as they fieght him out of his jock strap and lower the boom on him.

Well said, dmar.

how about michalczewski for starters...liles nunn nigel benn eubuck jullian jackson several others at middle and above.instead of guys like 5-8 fight jackson...a few of them were southpaws which is why i bet tarver.

Unfair to have them meeting at 175lb's, Ray was an outstanding welterweight and a great middleweight.

And Freak Roy ducked alot of people during his reign, Darius M was the lineal Light Heavyweight champion when Roy was p4p king and he made no effort to face him.

Roy's a class act and a great fighter. That said, Ray Robinson and is a better fighter. Faster, smarter, knocks an opponent out with either hand, etc. Ray beats Roy at any weight. My take.

Ali wrote:Unfair to have them meeting at 175lb's, Ray was an outstanding welterweight and a great middleweight.

And Freak Roy ducked alot of people during his reign, Darius M was the lineal Light Heavyweight champion when Roy was p4p king and he made no effort to face him.

Darius M, the same guy that never fought out of Europe? Why should RJJ have to go to Europe to fight a fighter that he clearly would've beat? So the judges can screw him again?

Not a fair weight for the match up at all. I like Roy a lot, he's a great athlete and entertainer and he's really doing well calling fights on HBO.

But Dmar and others are right on here - Sugar Ray is by far the better boxer, probably the best ever P4P. He takes Roy at any reasonable catch weight, but 175 is pushing it.

freak when was roy ever robbed in a decsion..if anything he got a gift in the first tarver fight..yes going to europe is what a lot of champs have done.ali robinson and others fought overseas..its highly unlikely roy would of beat daruis and that was the thoughts of most boxing folks.no serious attempt was made to get that fight anywhere including the usa..

dmar5143 wrote:freak when was roy ever robbed in a decsion..if anything he got a gift in the first tarver fight..yes going to europe is what a lot of champs have done.ali robinson and others fought overseas..its highly unlikely roy would of beat daruis and that was the thoughts of most boxing folks.no serious attempt was made to get that fight anywhere including the usa..

Olympics. That scared him of fighting overseas. Darius M should've went to the states if he really wanted that fight.

freakzilla wrote:

Ali wrote:Unfair to have them meeting at 175lb's, Ray was an outstanding welterweight and a great middleweight.

And Freak Roy ducked alot of people during his reign, Darius M was the lineal Light Heavyweight champion when Roy was p4p king and he made no effort to face him.

Darius M, the same guy that never fought out of Europe? Why should RJJ have to go to Europe to fight a fighter that he clearly would've beat? So the judges can screw him again?

Sigh.....

freakzilla wrote:

Ali wrote:Unfair to have them meeting at 175lb's, Ray was an outstanding welterweight and a great middleweight.

And Freak Roy ducked alot of people during his reign, Darius M was the lineal Light Heavyweight champion when Roy was p4p king and he made no effort to face him.

Darius M, the same guy that never fought out of Europe? Why should RJJ have to go to Europe to fight a fighter that he clearly would've beat? So the judges can screw him again?

clearly would have beat my ass. Roy had great physical gifts but he fought alot of shitty fighters over the years. Shitty fighters.

GrantZilla wrote:Not even a fair match-up. SRR best weight was Welter. He wasn't even a legit sized middleweight.

Agree.Robinson was at his best @ 147.SRR makes my top three at MW,but I'm not sure he beats a 1981 Marvin Hagler.At 175,he doesn't sniff top ten.

The most Robinson ever weighed in a fight was 168 1/2,and that was in 1962,when he was a bloated 41 year old fighter.

You guys knew I would be around for this one didnt you?

Roy was a 180 pound fighter the night he beat a 163 pound hopkins for the middle title. When he fought at the 175 pound limit, Jones was routinely at 190+pounds. Robinson was never over 157 until the last couple years of his career. At a glance, it seems that Jones is simply too big and strong for Robinson. Then again, Jones was KTFO a few times in the amateurs (once by Frankie Liles and a pair of standing 8s too from the fabulous one) and Robinson is SSSSSOOOOOOO far ahead of Jones in skill and technique, its hard to discount one of the greatest fighters of all-time against a figher who was only great in his own time.

Robinson is the greater fighter by so wide a margin it cant even be measured.

boxinglawyer wrote: You guys knew I would be around for this one didnt you?

Roy was a 180 pound fighter the night he beat a 163 pound hopkins for the middle title. When he fought at the 175 pound limit, Jones was routinely at 190+pounds. Robinson was never over 157 until the last couple years of his career. At a glance, it seems that Jones is simply too big and strong for Robinson. Then again, Jones was KTFO a few times in the amateurs (once by Frankie Liles and a pair of standing 8s too from the fabulous one) and Robinson is SSSSSOOOOOOO far ahead of Jones in skill and technique, its hard to discount one of the greatest fighters of all-time against a figher who was only great in his own time.

Robinson is the greater fighter by so wide a margin it cant even be measured.

I thought about breaking out your prior posts on Jones Jr, when posting in this thread, but I felt it would be best to let you take care of it.

Crap I posted all this a few second ago, but it didnt show up, so if it "double posts" I apologize.

I wanted to respond to the things written about Jones and Darius.
For starters, Jones absolutely ducked Darius. For those who dont know, Darius was THE champion of the division and held all the belts. He won the WBO title from Kronk star Leonzeer Barber. He then move up to KO Nestor Giovanni for the Cruiserweight title. Then he moved back down to set a record of 23 consecutive title defenses at 175. Along the way he easily defeated WBA and IBF champion Virgil Hill. BTW, Virgil Hill won the IBF title in a unification in GERMANY against the very popular German fighter, Henry Maske. Darius would be stipped of the WBA title for displaying in the ring along with his WBO title. Yep, thats right, he wore another belt in the ring with he WBA title, so they took it and gave it to Jones. The IBF stripped its title from him because he could not defend the title within 30 days of winning it against William Guthrie. Now, if you know anything about his win against Hill, you know he broke his right hand in the bouts first round. Yep, he got thirty days to recover, negotiate, train, and fight. The IBF took that belt and give it to Jones. Later, the WBC would strip Jones for refusing to meet his mandatory obligation against Michael Nunn. Nunn would fight Gracianno Rochigianni and lose. The WBC didnt like Gracianno holding the belt because they knew he would fight Darius next. The WBC would take the belt BACK and GIVE it to Jones. Rochigianni would then fight Darius and lose. Rochigianni would then SUE the WBC and win a 25 million judgement that bankupted the organization. (that a story for another post though).

Now, on to the ducking part. Jones and Darius tap-danced around each other for years. Both guys fought a similar level of competition with similar results and both were making major bank. The BIG difference between them was Darus was making a lot MORE than Jones and was filling soccer stadiums with fans in Europe. He was a major star and had huge endorsement deals. BOTH guys made "offers" to the other for fights that they knew would be turned down by the other camp. There was, however, ONE real, legit, and well documented offer for a fight. Ron Borges wrote about it on the HBO boxing web-site and Lou DiBella (then HBOs boxing guru) also commented about it publically. It came from Darius and Universum for a mega fight in Germany. Both fighters were getting a guaranteed 5 million. (huge non-heavyweight money). Both guys were also getting a portion of the live gate and PPV. (estimated to give both guys an additional 10-15 million) Jones said he would take the fight but ONLY if it was in Vegas. This is where things went wrong for Jones. Darius ACCEPTED the fight in Vegas. Then Jones upped his up-front demands. Darius gave him an additional % of the live gate. Jones asked for more. Universum balked at first, but Darius gave Jones a % of the European PPV (much larger than the US share) Jones asked for more, and DiBella stepped in and opened the HBO checkbook to the tune of 500k. Jones then refused the fight. Thats right................after all that.......All the money he asked for, Home field advantage, and a shot at THE champion, Jones refused to fight. He walked.
DiBella was furious. He lambasted Jones and called him "the most difficult fighter I have ever had the misfortune of dealing with". Larry Merchant gave Jones so much hell about it in pre-fight meetings that Jone went to the HBO brass and asked that Darius name be banned from the telecasts of his fights. Abraham refused. Instead, HBO did a fan poll for Jones next fight that showed Darius was the fighter fans most wanted him to face by a LARGE margin. More than triple the #2 guy.

As to the assertion that Jones "woulda beat him easy". Wrong again. Jones may well have won, but it is something I doubt seriously. Eddie Futch, who trained Montell Griffin for BOH Jones and DM said "Jones dont want NONE of what that boy got" in referrence to DM.
Emmanuel Steward said Jones would be "smart" to stay away from Darius if he could.
US fight fans seem to think of DM as a slow-robotic fighter with a decent punch and chin. Thats dead wrong. The guy WAS very big, very strong, durable and tough with terrific stamina. But he was also fundamentally SOUND and had a HAMMER of a jab and quick hands. He threw combinations and lots of body shots. When Jones fought Virgil Hill, he was barely edging Hill in the first three rounds before than monster body shot ended the fight. When Hill fought Darius before the Jones fight he lost every round to a guy with a broken right hand! Darius showed his versatility by using that sledge-hammer jab and quick punches along with movement to completley out-box the divisions premier boxer. He was no robot. He was a complete fighter. He DID prefer a more "hihg-contact" style of fight though because he was NOT afraid to get hit. He knew he could take it and the other guy could not take the return. Jones was an athlete that just happened to fight. Darius was a fighter who just happened to be an athlete.

Now, as for the other fighters Jones ducked. I think he simply "missed" some of the fighters because the timing was wrong. Julian Jackson was small middle, and Jones was never really a middle. Compounding the problem was the WBC rule for weigh-ins. It was same day at the time. Jones always did morning weigh-ins the day before (IBF rules allowed this) to allow the maximum time to re-hydrate. McClellan suffered his fate before a Jones fight was seriously being discussd.
Jones DID have the option to face Nigel Benn instead of Bryant Brannon, but Jones took the Brannon fight instead. Both Benn and Eubank along with Robin Ried and Steve Collins were on HBOs "approved" list for optional fights.
The other guy that I think Jones ducked is Frankie Liles. They had a history in the amateurs and faced each other 3 times. Jones lost the first on a TKO. He was given 2 standing 8 counts in the second but won a 2-3 decision (knockdowns dont count for points in the amateurs) and in the 3rd bout most people thought Liles had won, but Jones was given another razor-thin 3-2 decision. Liles was a 168 pound champion for almost 6 years and Jones held a title that entire time. He could never get Jones in the ring. Jones once held a press conference in ring-center before one of his fights claiming that Liles turned down a "career high" payday to face him. Liles was on the phone before the telecast was over saying that was completley false and he would fly to Florida that NIGHT to fight Jones! Freddie Roach, who was training Liles at the time, also said the was NEVER any offer for a fight with Liles. Franki Liles was RJJ's kryptonite. He was a 6'5" southpaw with POWER in both hands and quick-fists/feet. Think of Atonio Tarver with quicker hands and better movement and you have Frankie Liles.

Jones had asked for a fight with Vassily Jirov, who agreed, but then backed out to fight Ruiz. It was the RIGHT move for Jones without a doubt. But I REALLY think Jirov would have been MUCH more dangerous for Jones than RUIZ.

OK, I am done for now.........................................

I can't vote on something like this.

Roy may have had a small chance to beat SRR at Middleweight. But in those days they would have fought again and SRR would have beaten Roy the next five times.

And Freak, the question isn't who Roy ducked but who he didn't duck. The only fighter that ducked more challenges than Roy is Floyd.

I knew boxinglawyer would be all over this

Ali wrote:I knew boxinglawyer would be all over this

lawyer great detailed account matching my list of jones avoided fights..the darius fight i wasnt aware that jones actualy said yes asked for more and more and got it and then backed out..even david haye takes a back seat to that one.jones avoided liles like he had scarlett fever.liles would of stompted him.
freak did everyone anser your question on who did jones actualy duck..looks like 2 handsfull of fighters.

Funny, when I was reading boxinglawyer's breakdown of the Jones vs Darius negotiations I couldn't help but see similarities in the Floyd vs Manny talks. I just hope to Odin things pan out differently.