Mike Tyson: No "Hall of Fame" fighter.

dmar5143 wrote:larrys already in frank.

Tobe wrote:

Frank wrote:

Tobe wrote:

Frank wrote:

dmar5143 wrote:mike did that.the 80 year old lady...hes extra scum then...

Yep. Teddy Atlas needs to write a book. Word has it, Mike was mugging people while he was champion. lol

Teddy did write a book, and it's actually a pretty good one. He's had an interesting life. Check it out:

http://www.amazon.com/Atlas-Streets-Ring-Struggle-Become/dp/0060542403

Did he go into Mike's past?

Surprisingly not very much. I think most people would expect him to talk more about Tyson than he actually does. I get the impression he didn't want to be too closely tied to him in his biography.

Some really great stories in there though, like the time he was about to murder Donnie LaLonde (seriously, outside his door with a gun) :shock:

Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:A couple of thoughts.
-No heavyweight THE MAN champion is NOT in the IBHOF.
-Like it or not the heavyweight championship carries more weight than any other crown in boxing. It just does.

Now one way of looking at things is to say "If Mike Tyson were in any other division and, was a THE MAN champion with only two defenses, an immensley feared puncher and lost to 3 other guys in his division while arguably in his prime would he get in?"

Well here are a few names for you. Pipino Cuevas, Lew Jenkins, Rocky Graziano, Danny Lopez, Bobo Olson and Daniel Zaragoza.I'm NOT trying to make the argument that we are bound by the mistakes of the HOF, by guys like Rosario and Norton and McGuigan. But the six names above I think are NOT mistakes and Tyson sort of fits in in terms of accomplishment with guys like that doesn't he?

In any case my guess is this is one of the great moot points ever discussed.

Marble, first off, it is a mute point. Mike is getting in though not because of our votes. We don't have a say. The Boxing Press does. Honestly, they are not as qualified as some of us are to make those decisions.

Also, I know a little about some of the fighters you mentioned. When I compare them to Tyson, the words "Guts", "Scrapper" and "Endurance" come to mind. Rocky Graziano and Bobo Olson were both stopped by Ray Robinson. In my opinion, when considering a fighter for the HOF, all losses to Sugar Ray must be ignored. He beat everyone. However, Graziano showed a fighter's heart in his 3 bouts with Tony Zale. Bobo Olson, though a horrible husband (Had 2 families living 2 blocks from each other. I wonder how many guys screwed around with his wives. LOL) was a formidable MW champ who had some tough fights and proved his worth.

Cuevas? Well, the WW division of the 80's consisted of Leonard, Hearns, Duran and Benitez. If a fighter can make a name for himself in the midst of that insane greatness, he should be in the hall. Fighters that didn't belong to that elite group of 80's WWs mentioned above felt their bones crack when challenging Cuevas. And yes, he was a brave warrior king.

Rosario? He stopped Livington Bramble in two rounds. I felt that in itself was an underrated accomplishment considering that Bramble stopped both Mancini and Tyrone Crawly. Rosario also changed the life of Hector Camacho. Sure, his was out fought by Jose Luis Ramirez and Julio Chavez but styles make fights. I think that if Chavez and Ramirez were Heavyweights, they would've had Tyson screaming for his life. Bottom line? Those guys are tough. Tyson's not.

I like Lopez in the Hall. He was a dominant champion until he was out boxed by Salvador Sanchez. No, he wasn't the best FW champ, but he was a skill, brains and guts fighter. He just lacked the skills to take on Sanchez. So did a lot of great fighters (See Wilfredo Gomez).

My feelings on Tyson are the following: He never beat a HW in his prime who approached greatness. I recall when Tyson fought the limited but fearless "Tony Tucker." Afterwards, Mike thought Tucker was a special fighter. "If Michael Spinks fights Tony Tucker, I'll fight him." Who was Tony Tucker? A very limited HW who qualified as a top notch sparring partner for a real world class HW. Why did Tyson respect him so much? He was a big guy who wasn't scared of him. Guts is all that Tucker had going for him, however, it was almost enough against Tyson. Mike's biggest win was over a blown up LH (Michael Spinks). I personally think that the KO's against Frank Bruno may have been his most impressive pair of victories.

When challenging the elite of his division, Tyson fails miserably. Holyfield beat him within an inch of his life. Foreman scared him within 2 inches of his life. Lewis could've retired off of the money he was paid to stay away from so called "Iron Mike." Also, if you ask me, Mike was damn lucky he was in prison when Riddick Bowe was going to war with Evander. I think his prison years had the opposite effect on his career that Ali's 3 year exile had on his. Ali had his best years in front of him. However, iron bars protected Mike from fighting Bowe and Holyfield in his prime. He would've been knocked out and his stock would've plummeted. Since he was protected from these guys, he became somewhat of a "legend" while locked up. By the time he got out, he had excuses (I lost because I was past my prime) and Bowe was finished. Also, his celebrity allowed him to run from George Foreman. He fought Evander because and only because he thought Holyfield was a shot fighter. Surprise! My assessment? He's the biggest con job in boxing history and was just damn lucky.

One more point. HW bombers have more of an effect on the public than gifted punchers in other divisions for obvious reasons. Big guys going down in 1 or 2 rounds is much more dramatic (for the most part) than a MW or WW suffering the same fate. Think of “Julian Jackson” as an 80’s and 90s HW. Wouldn’t he have been a gigantic legend? Of course. Because he was a MW, he was relatively unknown among sports fans in general.

As if these points were not enough, Tyson humiliated boxing. No HW before him (and probably none following his unfortunate career) will ever approach his ignorance and gutter thug mentality. I’m still shocked he isn’t dead or in jail as we speak.

I admit, a case can be made for Tyson to enter the HOF. However, I think I can make a better case for retroactive abortion where he’s concerned.

Frank wrote:

Tobe wrote:

Frank wrote:

Tobe wrote:

Frank wrote:

dmar5143 wrote:mike did that.the 80 year old lady...hes extra scum then...

Yep. Teddy Atlas needs to write a book. Word has it, Mike was mugging people while he was champion. lol

Teddy did write a book, and it's actually a pretty good one. He's had an interesting life. Check it out:

http://www.amazon.com/Atlas-Streets-Ring-Struggle-Become/dp/0060542403

Did he go into Mike's past?

Surprisingly not very much. I think most people would expect him to talk more about Tyson than he actually does. I get the impression he didn't want to be too closely tied to him in his biography.

Some really great stories in there though, like the time he was about to murder Donnie LaLonde (seriously, outside his door with a gun) :shock:

Why did Teddy want to kill Don LaLonde? LOL

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:A couple of thoughts.
-No heavyweight THE MAN champion is NOT in the IBHOF.
-Like it or not the heavyweight championship carries more weight than any other crown in boxing. It just does.

Now one way of looking at things is to say "If Mike Tyson were in any other division and, was a THE MAN champion with only two defenses, an immensley feared puncher and lost to 3 other guys in his division while arguably in his prime would he get in?"

Well here are a few names for you. Pipino Cuevas, Lew Jenkins, Rocky Graziano, Danny Lopez, Bobo Olson and Daniel Zaragoza.I'm NOT trying to make the argument that we are bound by the mistakes of the HOF, by guys like Rosario and Norton and McGuigan. But the six names above I think are NOT mistakes and Tyson sort of fits in in terms of accomplishment with guys like that doesn't he?

In any case my guess is this is one of the great moot points ever discussed.

Marble, first off, it is a mute point. Mike is getting in though not because of our votes. We don't have a say. The Boxing Press does. Honestly, they are not as qualified as some of us are to make those decisions.

Also, I know a little about some of the fighters you mentioned. When I compare them to Tyson, the words "Guts", "Scrapper" and "Endurance" come to mind. Rocky Graziano and Bobo Olson were both stopped by Ray Robinson. In my opinion, when considering a fighter for the HOF, all losses to Sugar Ray must be ignored. He beat everyone. However, Graziano showed a fighter's heart in his 3 bouts with Tony Zale. Bobo Olson, though a horrible husband (Had 2 families living 2 blocks from each other. I wonder how many guys screwed around with his wives. LOL) was a formidable MW champ who had some tough fights and proved his worth.

Cuevas? Well, the WW division of the 80's consisted of Leonard, Hearns, Duran and Benitez. If a fighter can make a name for himself in the midst of that insane greatness, he should be in the hall. Fighters that didn't belong to that elite group of 80's WWs mentioned above felt their bones crack when challenging Cuevas. And yes, he was a brave warrior king.

Rosario? He stopped Livington Bramble in two rounds. I felt that in itself was an underrated accomplishment considering that Bramble stopped both Mancini and Tyrone Crawly. Rosario also changed the life of Hector Camacho. Sure, his was out fought by Jose Luis Ramirez and Julio Chavez but styles make fights. I think that if Chavez and Ramirez were Heavyweights, they would've had Tyson screaming for his life. Bottom line? Those guys are tough. Tyson's not.

I like Lopez in the Hall. He was a dominant champion until he was out boxed by Salvador Sanchez. No, he wasn't the best FW champ, but he was a skill, brains and guts fighter. He just lacked the skills to take on Sanchez. So did a lot of great fighters (See Wilfredo Gomez).

My feelings on Tyson are the following: He never beat a HW in his prime who approached greatness. I recall when Tyson fought the limited but fearless "Tony Tucker." Afterwards, Mike thought Tucker was a special fighter. "If Michael Spinks fights Tony Tucker, I'll fight him." Who was Tony Tucker? A very limited HW who qualified as a top notch sparring partner for a real world class HW. Why did Tyson respect him so much? He was a big guy who wasn't scared of him. Guts is all that Tucker had going for him, however, it was almost enough against Tyson. Mike's biggest win was over a blown up LH (Michael Spinks). I personally think that the KO's against Frank Bruno may have been his most impressive pair of victories.

When challenging the elite of his division, Tyson fails miserably. Holyfield beat him within an inch of his life. Foreman scared him within 2 inches of his life. Lewis could've retired off of the money he was paid to stay away from so called "Iron Mike." Also, if you ask me, Mike was damn lucky he was in prison when Riddick Bowe was going to war with Evander. I think his prison years had the opposite effect on his career that Ali's 3 year exile had on his. Ali had his best years in front of him. However, iron bars protected Mike from fighting Bowe and Holyfield in his prime. He would've been knocked out and his stock would've plummeted. Since he was protected from these guys, he became somewhat of a "legend" while locked up. By the time he got out, he had excuses (I lost because I was past my prime) and Bowe was finished. Also, his celebrity allowed him to run from George Foreman. He fought Evander because and only because he thought Holyfield was a shot fighter. Surprise! My assessment? He's the biggest con job in boxing history and was just damn lucky.

One more point. HW bombers have more of an effect on the public than gifted punchers in other divisions for obvious reasons. Big guys going down in 1 or 2 rounds is much more dramatic (for the most part) than a MW or WW suffering the same fate. Think of “Julian Jackson” as an 80’s and 90s HW. Wouldn’t he have been a gigantic legend? Of course. Because he was a MW, he was relatively unknown among sports fans in general.

As if these points were not enough, Tyson humiliated boxing. No HW before him (and probably none following his unfortunate career) will ever approach his ignorance and gutter thug mentality. I’m still shocked he isn’t dead or in jail as we speak.

I admit, a case can be made for Tyson to enter the HOF. However, I think I can make a better case for retroactive abortion where he’s concerned.

WOW! I'm not even gonna try to compete with that!

Frank wrote:I know a little about some of the fighters you mentioned. When I compare them to Tyson, the words "Guts", "Scrapper" and "Endurance" come to mind.

Frank wrote: If a fighter can make a name for himself in the midst of that insane greatness, he should be in the hall.

Frank wrote:I think that if Chavez and Ramirez were Heavyweights, they would've had Tyson screaming for his life. Bottom line? Those guys are tough. Tyson's not.

Frank wrote:My feelings on Tyson are the following: He never beat a HW in his prime who approached greatness. I recall when Tyson fought the limited but fearless "Tony Tucker." Afterwards, Mike thought Tucker was a special fighter. "If Michael Spinks fights Tony Tucker, I'll fight him." Who was Tony Tucker? A very limited HW who qualified as a top notch sparring partner for a real world class HW. Why did Tyson respect him so much? He was a big guy who wasn't scared of him. Guts is all that Tucker had going for him, however, it was almost enough against Tyson.

Frank wrote:When challenging the elite of his division, Tyson fails miserably. Holyfield beat him within an inch of his life. Foreman scared him within 2 inches of his life. Lewis could've retired off of the money he was paid to stay away from so called "Iron Mike."

Frank wrote:Also, if you ask me, Mike was damn lucky he was in prison when Riddick Bowe was going to war with Evander. I think his prison years had the opposite effect on his career that Ali's 3 year exile had on his. Ali had his best years in front of him. However, iron bars protected Mike from fighting Bowe and Holyfield in his prime. He would've been knocked out and his stock would've plummeted. Since he was protected from these guys, he became somewhat of a "legend" while locked up. By the time he got out, he had excuses (I lost because I was past my prime) and Bowe was finished. Also, his celebrity allowed him to run from George Foreman. He fought Evander because and only because he thought Holyfield was a shot fighter. Surprise! My assessment? He's the biggest con job in boxing history and was just damn lucky.

Frank wrote:Tyson humiliated boxing. No HW before him will ever approach his ignorance and gutter thug mentality. I’m still shocked he isn’t dead or in jail as we speak.

Frank wrote:I admit, a case can be made for Tyson to enter the HOF. However, I think I can make a better case for retroactive abortion where he’s concerned.

Gumby wrote:Mike Tyson can probably get into the Hall of Fame on reputation and popularity alone. Tyson has created more interest and excitement in the sport than anyone since Ali. He's a lock...but for the sake of discussion...

Frank wrote:I know a little about some of the fighters you mentioned. When I compare them to Tyson, the words "Guts", "Scrapper" and "Endurance" come to mind.

Just because Tyson did not exemplify "what a boxer should be" it does not detract from his accomplishments. He beat everyone there was to beat when he came onto the scene. Who in the Heavyweight Division has accomplished more than Mike Tyson since 1985? I would only definitively say Lewis. Also, Tyson was a guy who peaked very young and noticeably declined throughout his career.

Frank wrote: If a fighter can make a name for himself in the midst of that insane greatness, he should be in the hall.

Here we just disagree. I think any fighter who makes a name for himself has a claim to the Hall. Cuevas for example, is a great name to have on a HOF resume. It's too bad that he came up with so many other greats, but he did not distinguish himself among the best. Tyson is a name, period. Becoming the Heavyweight champ the way he did is an extremely difficult feat, regardless of era. Becoming a Heavyweight champ multiple times is impressive.

Frank wrote:I think that if Chavez and Ramirez were Heavyweights, they would've had Tyson screaming for his life. Bottom line? Those guys are tough. Tyson's not.

This is speculation. Tyson faced adversity during his title run. You have to be tough to overcome adversity. If Tyson wasn't tough, he would've never been champ.

He was and still is very emotional and mentally fragile. That hurt him later on in career and especially in his preparation. It does not take away from the fact that he was always a great fighter, and in spurts an amazing one. Tyson had qualities to help compensate for his lack of "toughness:" amazing speed, power, strength, ferociousness, solid technical abilities, and a style that made use of his gifts.

Frank wrote:My feelings on Tyson are the following: He never beat a HW in his prime who approached greatness. I recall when Tyson fought the limited but fearless "Tony Tucker." Afterwards, Mike thought Tucker was a special fighter. "If Michael Spinks fights Tony Tucker, I'll fight him." Who was Tony Tucker? A very limited HW who qualified as a top notch sparring partner for a real world class HW. Why did Tyson respect him so much? He was a big guy who wasn't scared of him. Guts is all that Tucker had going for him, however, it was almost enough against Tyson.

Tyson respected Tucker because he went 12 rounds and challenged him. That's different than saying the fight was close. It's the same way Floyd respected Marquez or BHop respected Trinidad. I don't know that he had a defining fight, but he beat some solid opponents.

Frank wrote:When challenging the elite of his division, Tyson fails miserably. Holyfield beat him within an inch of his life. Foreman scared him within 2 inches of his life. Lewis could've retired off of the money he was paid to stay away from so called "Iron Mike."

Holyfield beat him good. The rest of this is just your opinion.

Frank wrote:Also, if you ask me, Mike was damn lucky he was in prison when Riddick Bowe was going to war with Evander. I think his prison years had the opposite effect on his career that Ali's 3 year exile had on his. Ali had his best years in front of him. However, iron bars protected Mike from fighting Bowe and Holyfield in his prime. He would've been knocked out and his stock would've plummeted. Since he was protected from these guys, he became somewhat of a "legend" while locked up. By the time he got out, he had excuses (I lost because I was past my prime) and Bowe was finished. Also, his celebrity allowed him to run from George Foreman. He fought Evander because and only because he thought Holyfield was a shot fighter. Surprise! My assessment? He's the biggest con job in boxing history and was just damn lucky.

At this point, I've lost you. How can you honestly think prison had a positive impact on Tyson's career? Why is every hypothetical fight you have Tyson in a devastating loss? Tyson would have had a much better shot against Holyfield or Bowe before jail and a puncher's chance against anyone in history. But even at that point he had lost it. His loss to Buster Douglass demonstrated that Tyson's dedication to the sport, what had made him a great fighter, was gone. He's not a con job because he went out and earned his reputation. They don't hand out gold medals for showing up. They don't give away titles on reputation (at least not in this case). And he did everything in the most glamorous weight class. The quarterbacks of boxing. Of course his legacy gets a bump.

Frank wrote:Tyson humiliated boxing. No HW before him will ever approach his ignorance and gutter thug mentality. I’m still shocked he isn’t dead or in jail as we speak.

Tyson humiliated himself. The publicity he created for boxing is still creating new fans. Tyson could sell out an arena tomorrow if he wanted. I think he's just as shocked as anyone that he isn't dead or in jail.

Frank wrote:I admit, a case can be made for Tyson to enter the HOF. However, I think I can make a better case for retroactive abortion where he’s concerned.

It sounds like you just plain don't like him. Doesn't change the fact that he will be in the Hall, and deservedly so.