what ive always thought about JMM

i feel like ive seen this whole time what people are just figuring out now. i have always felt like JMM was underrated. he is good at everything. he has been dominant for years. everybody avoided him at featherweight ( i didnt see the fight but i heard that his one loss to freddie norwood was a bad decision) and then he finally fights pac who just whooped barerra and i think that he totally outboxes him. the 3 knockdowns in the first round i think made everybody just think about how good pac was the whole time instead of really watching marquez dominate. he actually takes a chris john fight like a true warrior when he doesnt have to and gets robbed but still dominates.

fights pac again in a close fight that could go either way. then KO's casamayor who has never been KO'd and KO's diaz who has never been KO'd either. loses to mayweather but mayweather was a lot bigger then beats diaz again and now just beats katsidis. so really, pretty much all of his losses (with the exception of mayweather) could be debated. he has never just gotten beat by another fighter. and i think that if mayweather would have fought pac on his first fight back instead of JMM, mayweather would have done the same thing but even worse to back (thats just my opinion). i felt like after that loss people just dropped him off of their radar even though he wasnt any less of a fighter.

JMM is such a great fighter. one of the best ive ever seen. i have just always felt like he doesnt get the recognition that he deserves. in my eyes, he is on the same level as pac.

a joy to watch

just beautiful combinations and what accuracy!

Up until the last two years JMM's resume just didn't stack up to the tip, tip-top of the sport in my view. He DID lose the Norwood fight in my view and the John fight as well. He did NOT defeat Manny in the only way that counts and his biggest win was over a well past it Barerra.

The Casamayor win was his breakthrough in my opinion but even THAT win was over a clearl fading 36 year old.

I am taking nothing away from JMM. But 90% of his claim to greatness has happened in the least 24 months.

He is NOT on the same level as Manny. He has ONE lineal title, Manny has four, JMM was NOT a teenaged champ, Manny was, JMM is fighting across his third division, Manny his tenth, JMM has beaten HOF quality fighters on one or two occasions, Manny has 6-7.

Head to head the styles make them very competitive.

marbleheadmaui wrote:Up until the last two years JMM's resume just didn't stack up to the tip, tip-top of the sport in my view. He DID lose the Norwood fight in my view and the John fight as well. He did NOT defeat Manny in the only way that counts and his biggest win was over a well past it Barerra.

The Casamayor win was his breakthrough in my opinion but even THAT win was over a clearl fading 36 year old.

I am taking nothing away from JMM. But 90% of his claim to greatness has happened in the least 24 months.

i think that you are the only person ive ever heard that thought that john beat him. what way was he supposed to beat manny that counts? i dont get it. and everybody avoided him. he was in the weight class of morales, barerra, and naseem and nobody wanted to fight him. then got robbed against pac. what he has done in the past 2 years havent at all surprised me because i already knew that he was that good and would KO all of those fighters.

marbleheadmaui wrote:Up until the last two years JMM's resume just didn't stack up to the tip, tip-top of the sport in my view. He DID lose the Norwood fight in my view and the John fight as well. He did NOT defeat Manny in the only way that counts and his biggest win was over a well past it Barerra.

The Casamayor win was his breakthrough in my opinion but even THAT win was over a clearl fading 36 year old.

I am taking nothing away from JMM. But 90% of his claim to greatness has happened in the least 24 months.

He is NOT on the same level as Manny. He has ONE lineal title, Manny has four, JMM was NOT a teenaged champ, Manny was, JMM is fighting across his third division, Manny his tenth, JMM has beaten HOF quality fighters on one or two occasions, Manny has 6-7.

Head to head the styles make them very competitive.

so what if manny brings up his weight better. that means nothing to me in who is greater. it just goes back to if you stay in the same weight class and dominate it doesnt mean that you are any worse than somebody who jumps 5. JMM didnt have the opportunity to be a teenage champ either and pac did. marquez was rarely even given opportunities. and for that, i cant say that he is automatically on a lower level.

so you are saying that if JMM would have gotten the decision in both fights against pac, that pac would still be better?

powerpuncher wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:Up until the last two years JMM's resume just didn't stack up to the tip, tip-top of the sport in my view. He DID lose the Norwood fight in my view and the John fight as well. He did NOT defeat Manny in the only way that counts and his biggest win was over a well past it Barerra.

The Casamayor win was his breakthrough in my opinion but even THAT win was over a clearl fading 36 year old.

I am taking nothing away from JMM. But 90% of his claim to greatness has happened in the least 24 months.

i think that you are the only person ive ever heard that thought that john beat him. what way was he supposed to beat manny that counts? i dont get it. and everybody avoided him. he was in the weight class of morales, barerra, and naseem and nobody wanted to fight him. then got robbed against pac. what he has done in the past 2 years havent at all surprised me because i already knew that he was that good and would KO all of those fighters.

Go watch the John fight and draw your own conclusions. In close fights (Manny) the recordbook is what matters. It just does. As for the "avoided" stuff? Blah, blah, blah. You get credit for the fights you have. Everything else is blah blah blah.

ROBBED against Manny? That's just silly. Unless you think Marquez won like 118-110.

powerpuncher wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:Up until the last two years JMM's resume just didn't stack up to the tip, tip-top of the sport in my view. He DID lose the Norwood fight in my view and the John fight as well. He did NOT defeat Manny in the only way that counts and his biggest win was over a well past it Barerra.

The Casamayor win was his breakthrough in my opinion but even THAT win was over a clearl fading 36 year old.

I am taking nothing away from JMM. But 90% of his claim to greatness has happened in the least 24 months.

He is NOT on the same level as Manny. He has ONE lineal title, Manny has four, JMM was NOT a teenaged champ, Manny was, JMM is fighting across his third division, Manny his tenth, JMM has beaten HOF quality fighters on one or two occasions, Manny has 6-7.

Head to head the styles make them very competitive.

so what if manny brings up his weight better. that means nothing to me in who is greater. it just goes back to if you stay in the same weight class and dominate it doesnt mean that you are any worse than somebody who jumps 5. JMM didnt have the opportunity to be a teenage champ either and pac did. marquez was rarely even given opportunities. and for that, i cant say that he is automatically on a lower level.

so you are saying that if JMM would have gotten the decision in both fights against pac, that pac would still be better?

Manny has done something only 5-6 fighters in history have done. JMM has done NOTHING that that is true for. If you want to get strict? JMM's highest achievement is winning the legit 135 crown and defending it three times. Know how many lightweights have done that? 20+.

As for "opportunities?" So what? Manny did it, JMM hasn't. Everyhting else is blah blah blah.

Woulda coulda shoulda ain't the same as having DONE IT!

BTW, I HATE being made to sound derogatory about JMM. He's a TREMENDOUS fighter and was magnificent tonight. I'm just trying to put him in proper perspective...at least as I see it.

powerpuncher wrote:i feel like ive seen this whole time what people are just figuring out now. i have always felt like JMM was underrated. he is good at everything. he has been dominant for years. everybody avoided him at featherweight ( i didnt see the fight but i heard that his one loss to freddie norwood was a bad decision) and then he finally fights pac who just whooped barerra and i think that he totally outboxes him. the 3 knockdowns in the first round i think made everybody just think about how good pac was the whole time instead of really watching marquez dominate. he actually takes a chris john fight like a true warrior when he doesnt have to and gets robbed but still dominates.

fights pac again in a close fight that could go either way. then KO's casamayor who has never been KO'd and KO's diaz who has never been KO'd either. loses to mayweather but mayweather was a lot bigger then beats diaz again and now just beats katsidis. so really, pretty much all of his losses (with the exception of mayweather) could be debated. he has never just gotten beat by another fighter. and i think that if mayweather would have fought pac on his first fight back instead of JMM, mayweather would have done the same thing but even worse to back (thats just my opinion). i felt like after that loss people just dropped him off of their radar even though he wasnt any less of a fighter.

JMM is such a great fighter. one of the best ive ever seen. i have just always felt like he doesnt get the recognition that he deserves. in my eyes, he is on the same level as pac.

Good post about Marquez, Puncher, I don't agree that he's on a level with Pacquiao, not now at least, but he's damn good. The only fight that he looked like he didn't belong in was the one against Mayweather Jr., but as you mentioned, Mayweather was a couple weight classes bigger then JMM. Marquez is one of those guys who actually deserves to be at the top of the P4P list, he's active, fights the best, and he's tough as nails.

i tend to agree with much of what marble said..look JMM accoriding to everyone was to beat katsidis with ease..he had a rough fight..katsidis was described as a weak chinned fighter who beat no bodies and more or less was a artifical canidate -contender in the LW division..her proved he belong in the mix last night..yes marquez looked impressive but folks did not almost everyone imply katsidis was second rate..marquez is a very good fighter but the comments i heard last night make me puke and i saw just the last 3 plus rounds and the replay of the knockdown..lampley was cheerleading1.one of the greatest combination punchers of all time..BULLSHIT..one of the greatest fighters of all time..bullshit again..manny stewart called the stopage a great call..BS again..look kasidis yes was slowing down..was he on queer street.nope.defenseless nope..stagering..nope.could he have gotten his second win..maybe..this is a hurt business not touch football and im glad thoses annouchers arnt refs for every fight will get stoped if you get slapped three times without a return..
again they attempt to play matchup and disguss what weight..lets do 140 or 135..shut the fuck up..cut the too big bullshit especialy when 2 guys are the same size..marquez is very good..all time great..well names like duran joe gans benny leanord arguello ike williams armstrong etc etc all lightweights keep poping in my head..hes overated by too many folks..names like pryor ortiz ambers ross also pop in my head..all fought head over hells greater fighters..hmmm look at beau jack ..ill bet lampley wont say all time great but he fought tougher fighters.....he was in a fight last night against a guy who almost all said on here was noooo where near his class nor does he belong in the mix of top lightweights..accoriding to that logic will we give the steelers the highest praise if they beat penn state 35-21...

dmar5143 wrote:i tend to agree with much of what marble said..look JMM accoriding to everyone was to beat katsidis with ease..he had a rough fight..katsidis was described as a weak chinned fighter who beat no bodies and more or less was a artifical canidate -contender in the LW division..her proved he belong in the mix last night..yes marquez looked impressive but folks did not almost everyone imply katsidis was second rate..marquez is a very good fighter but the comments i heard last night make me puke and i saw just the last 3 plus rounds and the replay of the knockdown..lampley was cheerleading1.one of the greatest combination punchers of all time..BULLSHIT..one of the greatest fighters of all time..bullshit again..manny stewart called the stopage a great call..BS again..look kasidis yes was slowing down..was he on queer street.nope.defenseless nope..stagering..nope.could he have gotten his second win..maybe..this is a hurt business not touch football and im glad thoses annouchers arnt refs for every fight will get stoped if you get slapped three times without a return..
again they attempt to play matchup and disguss what weight..lets do 140 or 135..shut the fuck up..cut the too big bullshit especialy when 2 guys are the same size..marquez is very good..all time great..well names like duran joe gans benny leanord arguello ike williams armstrong etc etc all lightweights keep poping in my head..hes overated by too many folks..names like pryor ortiz ambers ross also pop in my head..all fought head over hells greater fighters..hmmm look at beau jack ..ill bet lampley wont say all time great but he fought tougher fighters.....he was in a fight last night against a guy who almost all said on here was noooo where near his class nor does he belong in the mix of top lightweights..accoriding to that logic will we give the steelers the highest praise if they beat penn state 35-21...

nobody said that he was the greatest fighter ever. he just doesnt get respect that he deserves. he is such a good all around fighter. ill be the first to admit that katsidis isnt the greatest fighter. i knew that JMM would KO him but thats why i made this thread. a lot of people seemed to think that they were on the same level or close to the same level. im here to say that JMM is on a way higher level than him and pretty much every boxer now. there are maybe a handful of fighters today that are on his level or close to it. so many people seem to be surprised at what he has been doing recently but im not because ive always known that he was superior to everybody he has fought recently. and i agree with marquez that pac is scared of him. if pac has to fight marquez at 147 then that means that pac's wins become less impressive because he is a welterweight. if he cant get down even to 140 anymore then he is a welterweight beating other welterweight fighters. so its either that or he is just scared to come down and fight marquez.

powerpuncher wrote:

dmar5143 wrote:i tend to agree with much of what marble said..look JMM accoriding to everyone was to beat katsidis with ease..he had a rough fight..katsidis was described as a weak chinned fighter who beat no bodies and more or less was a artifical canidate -contender in the LW division..her proved he belong in the mix last night..yes marquez looked impressive but folks did not almost everyone imply katsidis was second rate..marquez is a very good fighter but the comments i heard last night make me puke and i saw just the last 3 plus rounds and the replay of the knockdown..lampley was cheerleading1.one of the greatest combination punchers of all time..BULLSHIT..one of the greatest fighters of all time..bullshit again..manny stewart called the stopage a great call..BS again..look kasidis yes was slowing down..was he on queer street.nope.defenseless nope..stagering..nope.could he have gotten his second win..maybe..this is a hurt business not touch football and im glad thoses annouchers arnt refs for every fight will get stoped if you get slapped three times without a return..
again they attempt to play matchup and disguss what weight..lets do 140 or 135..shut the fuck up..cut the too big bullshit especialy when 2 guys are the same size..marquez is very good..all time great..well names like duran joe gans benny leanord arguello ike williams armstrong etc etc all lightweights keep poping in my head..hes overated by too many folks..names like pryor ortiz ambers ross also pop in my head..all fought head over hells greater fighters..hmmm look at beau jack ..ill bet lampley wont say all time great but he fought tougher fighters.....he was in a fight last night against a guy who almost all said on here was noooo where near his class nor does he belong in the mix of top lightweights..accoriding to that logic will we give the steelers the highest praise if they beat penn state 35-21...

nobody said that he was the greatest fighter ever. he just doesnt get respect that he deserves. he is such a good all around fighter. ill be the first to admit that katsidis isnt the greatest fighter. i knew that JMM would KO him but thats why i made this thread. a lot of people seemed to think that they were on the same level or close to the same level. im here to say that JMM is on a way higher level than him and pretty much every boxer now. there are maybe a handful of fighters today that are on his level or close to it. so many people seem to be surprised at what he has been doing recently but im not because ive always known that he was superior to everybody he has fought recently. and i agree with marquez that pac is scared of him. if pac has to fight marquez at 147 then that means that pac's wins become less impressive because he is a welterweight. if he cant get down even to 140 anymore then he is a welterweight beating other welterweight fighters. so its either that or he is just scared to come down and fight marquez.

Let me start by praising JMM. A GREAT fighter. But here's what the data says. He has beaten eight ranked guys. Now that is a good number, but guys like Manny and Floyd and MAB and Morales have beaten almost TWICE as many. He has perhaps one win over HOFers. The four guys above each have at least three times as many. Now of course you are free to theroize and speculate all you want. But in my view that is never as persuasive or compelling as the record book.

I don't think ANYBODY was arguing JMM was on the same level as Katsidis. I certainly wasn't. The argument was at 37 was JMM on the same level as Katsidis plus Father Time? Given that Katsidis dropped him? Hard to say that wasn't a competitive fight.