Psy. Approach to Martinez vs. Williams. attn: Marble and dmar

Marble and dmar, I've been reading your threads for a long time. I've always had great interest in them. They cover your opinions beautifully, from the tale of the tape to boxing strategies to foot movement, etc. You leave little for the imagination. What's confused me is why I always add something to your outlooks. (This is not deep shit. I’m just thinking out loud in the morning. LOL)

I think I look at fights from more of a psychological stance while you look at it from an "ability and strategic" angle. My take on this fight, and I'd like your opinions on this, is that the belt just may have made Sergio a better fighter. I'm actually waiting for a Marteniz that's just a little better than he was the last time he fought Williams.

Reasons: I think that Marteniz will try new things and strategize to outclass or KO Williams. I've seen the belt make better fighters out of Holmes, Ali, Pedroza, etc. These rules don't apply to one dimensional fighters aka Kelly Pavlik but seem to apply to most skilled boxers.

Another angle. We just saw Margarito put on what I thought was an impressive performance. (I'd like your takes on this too.) His determination most likely came from feeling that it was Antonio against the world. AM would've rather have died last week than leave a question about his abilities given the recent controversies he's been involved in. He may've been one of the most determined fighters I ever saw last week.

We all recall when Joe Frazier broke George Chuvalo's eye socket.(Oribital Bone). Chuvalo may've been the toughest HW I've ever seen when it came to taking punishment, however I recall George holding his eye and just about quitting at the point. Though the injuries may've been different, Margarito fought on. His ability is worlds below Pacs, but not his heart.

There was once a "Sports Illustrated" article which showed "Sonny Liston" crying on his stool after being outclassed by then, Cassius Clay. The writer wrote in his epitaph, “ As Sonny Liston sat on his stool, a tear rolled down his face. Somehow, it seemed wrong to feel sorry for “Sonny Liston.” After last week, I understand this writer to a greater degree. I struggled to feel something for Margo when Pac turned to the ref and motioned for him to stop the fight. I couldn’t. Following the fight, I heard about his broken facial bone and replayed the fight in my head. Though I had no pity for him, I respected his effort. He fought to his last breath to prove he had great pride in himself as a boxer and was not going to be exposed as the coward he may’ve never been. Everyone’s celebrating Pac’s great effort but I think Margarito’s story is an interesting one that is being ignored.

I'm just saying that psychological points, bought out correctly, add to a fight's mystique. Remember the "Emile Griffith - Benny Parret fight? Griffith beat Parret to death (Crushed his skull). Did this have anything to do with Parret's insistence that Emile was a homosexual?

If there is a powerful mental factor that changes the result of fight, I'll try not to miss it and I'll do my best to challenge you guys (Everybody) to analyze it. Can anyone think of any that may’ve changed the course of boxing history?

First off great post.

One of the old boxing saws is that winning a championship makes a fighter better. I happen to think it carries some truth. In addition to your list of guys for who it was true we can add names like Arguello and Sanchez and Holyfield and Tiger and Walker etc. Their confidence grew, they valued the title and being champ so they trained to stay champ and the mere fact that they were champ added to their mystique and gave them a psychological edge.

But with regards to Sergio one wonders about two things that may mitigate that. First is his age. All the guys you and I named became champion in their early to mid-twenties. So they had physical upside remaining as well as mental upside. I think Sergio only has mental upside. His body may not yet be in decline, but it has certainly stopped improving at 35. The second issue is related to this. Has his body gotten away from him a little bit? The weigh-ins through camp and the way he looked today hint that it did. Martinez is a little like Roy Jones in that his craft is based entirely on his energy, reflexes and movement. He had BETTER be in top shape or else.

My own view on Margarito is that he cannot be redeemed. His attempt at cheating (even if that's all he ever did) is simply unforgiveable. Having said that I think he fought bravely and well last week. That guy beats all but a handful of welters fighting today. After that beating we'll never see that guy again is my guess. If all we are doing is talking about the Manny fight? I have only good things to say about Maragrito. It is entirely his fault that nobody will EVER just talk about a fight of his.

One psych point on PW. In his only other rematch he blew Quintana away. Does he try that again?

marbleheadmaui wrote:First off great post.

One of the old boxing saws is that winning a championship makes a fighter better. I happen to think it carries some truth. In addition to your list of guys for who it was true we can add names like Arguello and Sanchez and Holyfield and Tiger and Walker etc. Their confidence grew, they valued the title and being champ so they trained to stay champ and the mere fact that they were champ added to their mystique and gave them a psychological edge.

But with regards to Sergio one wonders about two things that may mitigate that. First is his age. All the guys you and I named became champion in their early to mid-twenties. So they had physical upside remaining as well as mental upside. I think Sergio only has mental upside. His body may not yet be in decline, but it has certainly stopped improving at 35. The second issue is related to this. Has his body gotten away from him a little bit? The weigh-ins through camp and the way he looked today hint that it did. Martinez is a little like Roy Jones in that his craft is based entirely on his energy, reflexes and movement. He had BETTER be in top shape or else.

My own view on Margarito is that he cannot be redeemed. His attempt at cheating (even if that's all he ever did) is simply unforgiveable. Having said that I think he fought bravely and well last week. That guy beats all but a handful of welters fighting today. After that beating we'll never see that guy again is my guess. If all we are doing is talking about the Manny fight? I have only good things to say about Maragrito. It is entirely his fault that nobody will EVER just talk about a fight of his.

One psych point on PW. In his only other rematch he blew Quintana away. Does he try that again?

Can't disagree with any of this. First off, it is interesting that Martinez is 35 and Williams blew Quintana away in a rematch. It's hard for me to imagine that seeing the boxing abilities of Maritnez but ya never know. I'm very interested in how Williams will fight this fight.

As far as AM goes, sure he made his own bed. He'll never be accepted anywhere but Mexico. That said, as we both noted, he risked his life to try and change that factor. Nothing bad about that. But I don't think we'll see him again either. That said, in a strange way, I think I'll always respect him.

Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:First off great post.

One of the old boxing saws is that winning a championship makes a fighter better. I happen to think it carries some truth. In addition to your list of guys for who it was true we can add names like Arguello and Sanchez and Holyfield and Tiger and Walker etc. Their confidence grew, they valued the title and being champ so they trained to stay champ and the mere fact that they were champ added to their mystique and gave them a psychological edge.

But with regards to Sergio one wonders about two things that may mitigate that. First is his age. All the guys you and I named became champion in their early to mid-twenties. So they had physical upside remaining as well as mental upside. I think Sergio only has mental upside. His body may not yet be in decline, but it has certainly stopped improving at 35. The second issue is related to this. Has his body gotten away from him a little bit? The weigh-ins through camp and the way he looked today hint that it did. Martinez is a little like Roy Jones in that his craft is based entirely on his energy, reflexes and movement. He had BETTER be in top shape or else.

My own view on Margarito is that he cannot be redeemed. His attempt at cheating (even if that's all he ever did) is simply unforgiveable. Having said that I think he fought bravely and well last week. That guy beats all but a handful of welters fighting today. After that beating we'll never see that guy again is my guess. If all we are doing is talking about the Manny fight? I have only good things to say about Maragrito. It is entirely his fault that nobody will EVER just talk about a fight of his.

One psych point on PW. In his only other rematch he blew Quintana away. Does he try that again?

Can't disagree with any of this. First off, it is interesting that Martinez is 35 and Williams blew Quintana away in a rematch. It's hard for me to imagine that seeing the boxing abilities of Maritnez but ya never know. I'm very interested in how Williams will fight this fight.

As far as AM goes, sure he made his own bed. He'll never be accepted anywhere but Mexico. That said, as we both noted, he risked his life to try and change that factor. Nothing bad about that. But I don't think we'll see him again either. That said, in a strange way, I think I'll always respect him.

I don't think Williams CAN blitz Sergio. But how does it change the dynamic if he tries? Can he do enough to spook Sergio a little and put 3-4 rounds in the bank just on intimidation? Does PW get discouraged if he tries and it doesn't work and does Sergio just take over? No idea.

On Margarito I can never respect the man. But I respect (I wish I had a stronger word) the committment and effort last week.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Frank wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:First off great post.

One of the old boxing saws is that winning a championship makes a fighter better. I happen to think it carries some truth. In addition to your list of guys for who it was true we can add names like Arguello and Sanchez and Holyfield and Tiger and Walker etc. Their confidence grew, they valued the title and being champ so they trained to stay champ and the mere fact that they were champ added to their mystique and gave them a psychological edge.

But with regards to Sergio one wonders about two things that may mitigate that. First is his age. All the guys you and I named became champion in their early to mid-twenties. So they had physical upside remaining as well as mental upside. I think Sergio only has mental upside. His body may not yet be in decline, but it has certainly stopped improving at 35. The second issue is related to this. Has his body gotten away from him a little bit? The weigh-ins through camp and the way he looked today hint that it did. Martinez is a little like Roy Jones in that his craft is based entirely on his energy, reflexes and movement. He had BETTER be in top shape or else.

My own view on Margarito is that he cannot be redeemed. His attempt at cheating (even if that's all he ever did) is simply unforgiveable. Having said that I think he fought bravely and well last week. That guy beats all but a handful of welters fighting today. After that beating we'll never see that guy again is my guess. If all we are doing is talking about the Manny fight? I have only good things to say about Maragrito. It is entirely his fault that nobody will EVER just talk about a fight of his.

One psych point on PW. In his only other rematch he blew Quintana away. Does he try that again?

Can't disagree with any of this. First off, it is interesting that Martinez is 35 and Williams blew Quintana away in a rematch. It's hard for me to imagine that seeing the boxing abilities of Maritnez but ya never know. I'm very interested in how Williams will fight this fight.

As far as AM goes, sure he made his own bed. He'll never be accepted anywhere but Mexico. That said, as we both noted, he risked his life to try and change that factor. Nothing bad about that. But I don't think we'll see him again either. That said, in a strange way, I think I'll always respect him.

I don't think Williams CAN blitz Sergio. But how does it change the dynamic if he tries? Can he do enough to spook Sergio a little and put 3-4 rounds in the bank just on intimidation? Does PW get discouraged if he tries and it doesn't work and does Sergio just take over? No idea.

On Margarito I can never respect the man. But I respect (I wish I had a stronger word) the committment and effort last week.

This is what I was trying to say. LOL

marbleheadmaui wrote:On Margarito I can never respect the man. But I respect (I wish I had a stronger word) the committment and effort last week.

admire? appreciate?was pleasantly surprised at? marvel at?