Ok quick question here.

What fighters have had the deadly combination of Speed, Power and Chin that pac seems to have at this point in his great career?

See I think one has to be a little careful here. At 147 Manny is NOT exceptionally powerful. Manny hit Margarito almost 500 times and couldn't drop him. Clottey was a punching bag and Manny couldn't drop him. Were he fighting at the lowest weight he could make and be effective (my guess is it is 135) it would probably be a different story.

marbleheadmaui wrote:See I think one has to be a little careful here. At 147 Manny is NOT exceptionally powerful. Manny hit Margarito almost 500 times and couldn't drop him. Clottey was a punching bag and Manny couldn't drop him. Were he fighting at the lowest weight he could make and be effective (my guess is it is 135) it would probably be a different story.

I see what you are saying. But how else could you word the question to get what I am trying to say?

Pac dropped Cotto twice and stopped him in the 12th. Cotto hadn't been down at '47 before that. he took a knee against Margo from repeated punishment but wasn't dropped like he was against Manny. He almost killed Hatton and finished his career. I think his power is exceptional at every weight he's been at. I don't think anyone would have dropped clottey that night. All he did was cover up. Margarito at 150 with a proper camp is a task for anyone to drop. He broke the guys face and wobbled him more than once and backed him up. I'd say that little guy has some power.

Soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:See I think one has to be a little careful here. At 147 Manny is NOT exceptionally powerful. Manny hit Margarito almost 500 times and couldn't drop him. Clottey was a punching bag and Manny couldn't drop him. Were he fighting at the lowest weight he could make and be effective (my guess is it is 135) it would probably be a different story.

I see what you are saying. But how else could you word the question to get what I am trying to say?

LOL, I'm not sure what other characteristics you are trying to capture. Speed. Check. Chin. Check. What else? Dynamism maybe? Explosiveness and power seem more or less the same. Maybe the ability to keep bigger fighters "honest?" Hell maybe that really is a display of power after all. For a guy to be able to back off a guy 17 pounds heavier?

Can we restart the thread?

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:See I think one has to be a little careful here. At 147 Manny is NOT exceptionally powerful. Manny hit Margarito almost 500 times and couldn't drop him. Clottey was a punching bag and Manny couldn't drop him. Were he fighting at the lowest weight he could make and be effective (my guess is it is 135) it would probably be a different story.

I see what you are saying. But how else could you word the question to get what I am trying to say?

LOL, I'm not sure what other characteristics you are trying to capture. Speed. Check. Chin. Check. What else? Dynamism maybe? Explosiveness and power seem more or less the same. Maybe the ability to keep bigger fighters "honest?" Hell maybe that really is a display of power after all. For a guy to be able to back off a guy 17 pounds heavier?

Can we restart the thread?

Sure. LOL

i don't really think Pacquiao was sitting down on his ounches as much against Margarito, it looked more like he was just getting his shots in before moving back out of range. he hit Margarito with a body shot in the 4th and the way Antonio reacted i thought he had a broken rib. Margarito was out in the 10th. take into consideration that when punching up you lose a lot of that power. Margarito has always been used to getting hit a lot and walking through them to give his, but Pacquiao stopped Margarito in his tracks time and time again. this fight went exactly how i envisioned it. not because i thought Margarito was cherry picked, but because i expected Margarito to respect Manny's power as soon as he tasted it and that's pretty much what happened

dbudge wrote:i don't really think Pacquiao was sitting down on his ounches as much against Margarito, it looked more like he was just getting his shots in before moving back out of range. he hit Margarito with a body shot in the 4th and the way Antonio reacted i thought he had a broken rib. Margarito was out in the 10th. take into consideration that when punching up you lose a lot of that power. Margarito has always been used to getting hit a lot and walking through them to give his, but Pacquiao stopped Margarito in his tracks time and time again. this fight went exactly how i envisioned it. not because i thought Margarito was cherry picked, but because i expected Margarito to respect Manny's power as soon as he tasted it and that's pretty much what happened

I said the same thing at the fight.

I think what sets Manny apart is the exuberance. Most fighters get in the ring thinking, OK, time to do my job. Manny gets in there thinking, OK, let's have some fun.

hardcorebee24 wrote:Pac dropped Cotto twice and stopped him in the 12th. Cotto hadn't been down at '47 before that. he took a knee against Margo from repeated punishment but wasn't dropped like he was against Manny. He almost killed Hatton and finished his career. I think his power is exceptional at every weight he's been at. I don't think anyone would have dropped clottey that night. All he did was cover up. Margarito at 150 with a proper camp is a task for anyone to drop. He broke the guys face and wobbled him more than once and backed him up. I'd say that little guy has some power.

Agreed. Hardly anyone drops Margarito. Cotto was almost beat to heaven or hell (ask his friends which one.) and Hatton seemed dead when he was knocked out. ( I realize the fight wasn't at 147 but c'mon.) As far as Clottey was concerned, he didn't want to fight which is why he went the distance. Almost beat Oscar to death as well. Just may have ended AM's career by breaking his orbital bone. Yes, part of the miracle that is Manny Pacquiao is that when he rises in weight, the more muderous his punches get. This is a man to be feared in the ring. Ask Floyd Mayweather Jr.

OK the restart.

Ray Leonard had similar speed, power and chin. So did Roberto Duran (even including the Hearns KO). Tony Canzoneri deserves a mention as does Joe Gans. Billy Conn maybe?

But I might already be out of names and LOOK at that quality!

To answer your question Sooner, I don't recall a figther being this effective in so many different weight divisions. I've read about guys like this but never lived their careers with them. Sugar Ray Leonard was freakishly fast and strong at WW. I know Ray never took that power to the MW division but that's the only guy I can think of. Charlie Burley, Henry Armstrong,etc, were before my time.

I think the question could be, how many fighters actually gained strength while climbing in weight. I can't think of any. Arguello never lost power. That's the best I can do.

marbleheadmaui wrote:OK the restart.

Ray Leonard had similar speed, power and chin. So did Roberto Duran (even including the Hearns KO). Tony Canzoneri deserves a mention as does Joe Gans. Billy Conn maybe?

But I might already be out of names and LOOK at that quality!

That is crazy. How good would this guy be if Roach had him from the very beginning of his career?

Soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:OK the restart.

Ray Leonard had similar speed, power and chin. So did Roberto Duran (even including the Hearns KO). Tony Canzoneri deserves a mention as does Joe Gans. Billy Conn maybe?

But I might already be out of names and LOOK at that quality!

That is crazy. How good would this guy be if Roach had him from the very beginning of his career?

Dunno. Manny has the rare ability to grow and change as a fighter. He gets the best out of himself. The Klits do the same but look at the disparity in ability between them and Manny. Changing styles and working to do different things is so rare these days among fighters, it may as well be illegal. Manny's different. Also, don't kid yourself. Roach couldn't do this with anyone else. Manny may be the most creative figther I've seen since Ali or Aaron Pryor.

Soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:OK the restart.

Ray Leonard had similar speed, power and chin. So did Roberto Duran (even including the Hearns KO). Tony Canzoneri deserves a mention as does Joe Gans. Billy Conn maybe?

But I might already be out of names and LOOK at that quality!

That is crazy. How good would this guy be if Roach had him from the very beginning of his career?

Geepers I'd never thought of that. The guy who leaps to mind is Duran. He was another untutored dynamo as a teenager and had just turned 20 when Ray Arcel and Freddie Brown agreed to take him on. Within a year he had beaten Ken Buchanan and it took another 5-6 years for Duran to become fully finished as a fighter.

So let's say Freddie gets Manny when he's 16? Is Manny this good by the time he's 21-22? Probably is. In that scenario? My guess is we'd think of Manny like we think of Duran, Sweet Pea and Ray Leonard...heck maybe we ought to be doing that anyway

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:OK the restart.

Ray Leonard had similar speed, power and chin. So did Roberto Duran (even including the Hearns KO). Tony Canzoneri deserves a mention as does Joe Gans. Billy Conn maybe?

But I might already be out of names and LOOK at that quality!

That is crazy. How good would this guy be if Roach had him from the very beginning of his career?

Geepers I'd never thought of that. The guy who leaps to mind is Duran. He was another untutored dynamo as a teenager and had just turned 20 when Ray Arcel and Freddie Brown agreed to take him on. Within a year he had beaten Ken Buchanan and it took another 5-6 years for Duran to become fully finished as a fighter.

So let's say Freddie gets Manny when he's 16? Is Manny this good by the time he's 21-22? Probably is. In that scenario? My guess is we'd think of Manny like we think of Duran, Sweet Pea and Ray Leonard...heck maybe we ought to be doing that anyway

Not trying to be an asshole, but hasn't Freddie also become better since getting Manny. Who was Freddie 16 years ago. Manny has made Freddie as much a great trainer as Freddie has made Manny a fighter.

hardcorebee24 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:OK the restart.

Ray Leonard had similar speed, power and chin. So did Roberto Duran (even including the Hearns KO). Tony Canzoneri deserves a mention as does Joe Gans. Billy Conn maybe?

But I might already be out of names and LOOK at that quality!

That is crazy. How good would this guy be if Roach had him from the very beginning of his career?

Geepers I'd never thought of that. The guy who leaps to mind is Duran. He was another untutored dynamo as a teenager and had just turned 20 when Ray Arcel and Freddie Brown agreed to take him on. Within a year he had beaten Ken Buchanan and it took another 5-6 years for Duran to become fully finished as a fighter.

So let's say Freddie gets Manny when he's 16? Is Manny this good by the time he's 21-22? Probably is. In that scenario? My guess is we'd think of Manny like we think of Duran, Sweet Pea and Ray Leonard...heck maybe we ought to be doing that anyway

Not trying to be an asshole, but hasn't Freddie also become better since getting Manny. Who was Freddie 16 years ago. Manny has made Freddie as much a great trainer as Freddie has made Manny a fighter.

Interesting thought and I honestly don't know the answer. I would have said that Freddie was fully formed as a trainer when Eddie Futch was done working with him. But I think you make a good point, Freddie MUST have grown in his time with Manny. Hmmmmmmmm

marbleheadmaui wrote:

hardcorebee24 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:OK the restart.

Ray Leonard had similar speed, power and chin. So did Roberto Duran (even including the Hearns KO). Tony Canzoneri deserves a mention as does Joe Gans. Billy Conn maybe?

But I might already be out of names and LOOK at that quality!

That is crazy. How good would this guy be if Roach had him from the very beginning of his career?

Geepers I'd never thought of that. The guy who leaps to mind is Duran. He was another untutored dynamo as a teenager and had just turned 20 when Ray Arcel and Freddie Brown agreed to take him on. Within a year he had beaten Ken Buchanan and it took another 5-6 years for Duran to become fully finished as a fighter.

So let's say Freddie gets Manny when he's 16? Is Manny this good by the time he's 21-22? Probably is. In that scenario? My guess is we'd think of Manny like we think of Duran, Sweet Pea and Ray Leonard...heck maybe we ought to be doing that anyway

Not trying to be an asshole, but hasn't Freddie also become better since getting Manny. Who was Freddie 16 years ago. Manny has made Freddie as much a great trainer as Freddie has made Manny a fighter.

Interesting thought and I honestly don't know the answer. I would have said that Freddie was fully formed as a trainer when Eddie Futch was done working with him. But I think you make a good point, Freddie MUST have grown in his time with Manny. Hmmmmmmmm

Man that is a good point. But still even if they grew together Manny would still have a much better career going I think. Do you guys think he would have a loss at this point?

[/quote]

Interesting thought and I honestly don't know the answer. I would have said that Freddie was fully formed as a trainer when Eddie Futch was done working with him. But I think you make a good point, Freddie MUST have grown in his time with Manny. Hmmmmmmmm[/quote]
Man that is a good point. But still even if they grew together Manny would still have a much better career going I think. Do you guys think he would have a loss at this point?[/quote]

Sure, I think losing a competitive match to Morales is still exceptional. Also, he was what 16 with no amateur career in one loss. The other came as Manny killed himself to make weight.

Soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

hardcorebee24 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:OK the restart.

Ray Leonard had similar speed, power and chin. So did Roberto Duran (even including the Hearns KO). Tony Canzoneri deserves a mention as does Joe Gans. Billy Conn maybe?

But I might already be out of names and LOOK at that quality!

That is crazy. How good would this guy be if Roach had him from the very beginning of his career?

Geepers I'd never thought of that. The guy who leaps to mind is Duran. He was another untutored dynamo as a teenager and had just turned 20 when Ray Arcel and Freddie Brown agreed to take him on. Within a year he had beaten Ken Buchanan and it took another 5-6 years for Duran to become fully finished as a fighter.

So let's say Freddie gets Manny when he's 16? Is Manny this good by the time he's 21-22? Probably is. In that scenario? My guess is we'd think of Manny like we think of Duran, Sweet Pea and Ray Leonard...heck maybe we ought to be doing that anyway

Not trying to be an asshole, but hasn't Freddie also become better since getting Manny. Who was Freddie 16 years ago. Manny has made Freddie as much a great trainer as Freddie has made Manny a fighter.

Interesting thought and I honestly don't know the answer. I would have said that Freddie was fully formed as a trainer when Eddie Futch was done working with him. But I think you make a good point, Freddie MUST have grown in his time with Manny. Hmmmmmmmm

Man that is a good point. But still even if they grew together Manny would still have a much better career going I think. Do you guys think he would have a loss at this point?

I think his whole career would have been different. He probably is fighting at 122 much sooner which means he's fighting guys like Morales and Barerra at their absolute best as well as other formidable guys like Paulie Ayala. Yeah, he'd have gotten beat at some point.

[/quote]

I think his whole career would have been different. He probably is fighting at 122 much sooner which means he's fighting guys like Morales and Barerra at their absolute best as well as other formidable guys like Paulie Ayala. Yeah, he'd have gotten beat at some point. [/quote]

Or Manny starts tapping his gloves together at 122 and beats Morales and Barrera worse than he already did.

I think Manny would be knocking guys out if he wasn't fighting two weight classes above his true weight class.

If he was cutting weight like every other fighter on the planet, he'd be fighting at Lightweight still and knocking everybody out.

Similar to JMM. He's a Featherweight who happens to be the man at Lightweight.

Come on, SRR had speed, power, and chin. Only stopped once, and that was when was fighting a Light HW in 100 plus degree heat and got heat stroke

Tyson had speed, power, and chin. He just lacked heart because was fucking crazy

Dempsey had speed, power, chin. Only KO'd once ,and many think it was because he took a dive.

it took several posts before grant gave the ultimate in speed power chin and ability in sugar ray robinson..tyson qualifies with the speed part cause of the hands the others have it both in foot and hand..armstrong also like mike.jersey joe walcott also..look you fight louis and marciano you are going to get koed for sure but he could hit great one punch hand speed and noo wasted movement in the speed department.he moved intelligently ..to a certain degree arron pryor and camacho..hector could punch but if he didnt get you in the first three rounds then he was very happy putting on a boxing clinic but he could hit harder then given credit for..
one fighter who litterly made a complete transformation was vinnie paz after the accident..where that footspeed and willie pep moves came from i dont know but at a higher weight he moved better by far.i dont think he qualifies under the topic but i thought id throw that in..gene tunney also for sure..tunney could punch for sure but most fans overlook that.the reason was because he was soo stylish ..pac is not unique in that category by any means..

why are we overlooking shane mosley..or even floyd for that matter..dont think for a second floyd isnt a good puncher..