Joe Louis On Fighting Cassius Clay

How I Would Have Clobbered Clay Part 1

By Joe Louis

Originally Printed In The February 1967 Issue Of The Ring Magazine
Reprinted In The February 1991 Issue Of The Ring Magazine


Cassius Clay's got lots of ability, but he's not The Greatest. He's a guy with a million dollars worth of confidence and a dime's worth of courage. I could have whipped him. In all honesty, I feel it in my bones. Clay can be clobbered, and if you'll pardon an old-timer talking, I am cerrtain I know how.

These days, I get to the fights in most parts of the world, especially when Clay is defending my old heavyweight title. We kid around in training camps a little, and Clay makes speeches and goes into his act, telling folks how he would have fought Joe Louis. I play along. It don't harm nobody. Maybe helps with the action, puts a few dollars on the take.

Fellows come up, asking for autographs, that kind of thing, and tell me I could have licked Clay with the Empire State Building tied to my feet. I don't say anything.

But a man gets thoughts sitting there watching Clay. I see him fooling in the gym, and I seen nearly all his fights, right through from Willie Besmanoff, way back in Louisville, to Cleveland Williams in Houston. Sometimes Clay fights good and sometimes he pulls rhubarbs that should get his head knocked off if the other guy knew his trade like they made me learn mine.

Trouble with Clay, he thinks he knows it all. Fights with his mouth. He won't listen. Me, first thing I learned in the fight gane was to keep my trap shut and my ears wide open, especially when my wise old trainer, Chappie Blackburn, was telling me things for my own good.

We did all right. Seems like I won a championship, so maybe I'm entitled to speak up a word or two of truth after all these years. And the truth in my book is I'm sure I could've put Clay away, and also know how.

Clay says he's got the fastest hands and the fastes feet of any heavyweight who was ever born. That's his opinion and he's entitled to it. The kid has speed and can surely box when he has to. There's nobody around to outbox him, and the opponent who tries is in his grave. Especially in the middle of the ring. With room to move, Clay's a champion, real dangerous. But he doesn't know a thing about fighting on the ropes, which is where he would be if he were in there with me. He's all confused, his feet in knots, and his body wide open to everything.

I didn't see Henry Cooper put Clay down in their first fight in London, but I'd like to bet Clay was coming off the ropes when he got caught with left hook.

I certainly saw that German southpaw, Mildenberger, bang him good in the corner, and that was when Mildenberger had been battered into a hopeless, beat-up hulk in the 10th round. Clay did not appreciate that punch one bit, but if Mildenberger had known enough to send it over when he was fresh, I figure Clay would have appreciated it a whole lot less.

Sure, Clay's got fancy feet in the middle of the ring, faster even than Billy Conn or Bob Pastor, two of the quickest men who ever gave me the run-around till I caught up. But Clay wastes his footwork, stumbling around like Conn and Pastor never did, from where I was looking.

There's a couple of other things about Clay. He drops his left hand when he should be protecting that pretty face he's always talking about. Doing a fool thing like that in a championship fight, he could end up looking like a meat wagon, or maybe riding in one.

Dropping your left hand ain't healthy. It was a weakness of my own till Max Schmeling taught me the hard was in our first fight.

If I were fighting Clay, I would start licking him at least five weeks before the bell, right in training camp...some place like my old stand at Pompton Lakes.

There wouldn't be too much of the fancy fixin's and show-biz routines they give you in the gymnasiums these days, but there sure would be some murder going on. I never fooled around in workouts.

I would pay top wages for the five fastest sparring partners I could buy. I would need quick targets to speed up my hands for a past opponent like Clay, and I would feel real sorry for those boys by the time we were through.

Clay has his own ideas about sparring. Me, too. There would be no horsing around. I never did pull punches with sparmates. Fighting was my business, and a man shouldn't play games in business hours. If I were training to whip Clay, my partners would go home bruised and busted up round the body, even from big gloves. Anyone who couldn't take it would be out, long before fight night.

And if I was boss in camp, I'd aim to be boss in the ring, where the gloves come smaller. Any man who fights Clay's fight is crazy. With me, Clay would have to fight a Joe Louis fight, my way, all the way. Which means I would go in to outpunch him rather than try to outbox him. I once thought I could keep up with Billy Conn, and for a long time it didn't take.

I'd see to it that Clay did not stay in ring-center. Out there, I could be the Patsy on the wrong end of the punishment. No, he'd be hit into those ropes as near a corner as I could get him...someplace where, from all I've seen, he just does not know how to fight.

If he stayed on the ropes, he'd get hurt. Sooner or later he'd try to bounce off, and when he did he would get hurt more. That's what the fight game is all about.

I'd press him, bang him around, claw him, clobber him with all I had, cut down his speed, belt him around the ribs. I'd punish the body, where the pain comes real bad. I know; I can still feel the trip-hammers Rocky Marciano hit me with when he knocked me out when he was on his way up and I was on my way out.

Clay would have welts on his body like I did. He would ache, like I did. His mouth would shut tight against the pain, and there would be tears burning his eyes. It is not very funny being under fire from bodypunches, and it wouldn't help Clay any looking for his trainer, Angelo Dundee, to come riding into the ring with the rescue posse.

Those guys in the corner fight good during the intervals, but they can't give you any more fists or any more heart when some guy's caving your ribs in.

"Kill the body and the head will die," Chappie used to tell me. It figures.

Sooner or later, I think Clay would get the message. Get it so good that he'd stop worrying about that face of his and drop his left hand like he did against Mildenberger and George Chuvalo. Those fellows got their openings by accident, and then fouled them up. I would work for it, and I wouldn't reckon to miss when it arrived.

If I goofed with a world title and a million dollars or so in the pot (plus all that television money these days), then I would not have any right to be in there with a smart fighter like Cassius Clay.

But only smart so far. Clay coming out of a corner all confused, busted up from body punches, would be a sucker for any opponent waiting for him with a shot in the locker. I'd be waiting, ready with something hot.

How I Would Have Clobbered Clay Part 2

By Joe Louis

Originally Printed In The February 1967 Issue Of The Ring Magazine
Reprinted In The February 1991 Issue Of The Ring Magazine


I haven't got around to figuring what kind of punch I'd send in for the payroll, but I learned several in my day. A one-punch fighter is only half a fighter. Take away his hammer and he's nothing. You have to be properly equipped.

When I won my title from jim Braddock, I cut Jim's lip with a left hook, but that was only by way of preparation for the payoff. When his legs began to wobble, I put my whole body behind a right to the jaw, and Jim dropped on his face for goodbye.

Maybe I could hit Clay with that kind of right. It takes all sorts, like in my second fight with Max Schmeling. A right to the jaw gave Max a three-count; he took two more from a one-two combination; then I threw a straight left jab and a right cross for keeps. But all these counts started from a right to the ribs after Max had bounced off the ropes with his legs in a mess.

I owed Max a thing or two. After he beat me two years earlier, I spent lots of time studying his style before I discovered he was a sucker for a left jab.

I honestly feel I could have turned the same kind of trick against Clay, but my feelings don't predict which round. Only poets go around predicting.

I was prepared to travel all the way against Schmeling, but I got my chance to tag him in one. Contrariwise, I was hoping for a quick kill in my first fight with Billy Conn on the New York Polo Grounds. But I came in too light, and Billy breezed along so fast he nearly took my title. Too bad he finally decided to slug it out, like I hoped he would, and got his face all mixed up with my right hand in the 13th.

If I was fighting Clay, I would aim to be ready with the big one any time, from round one to round 15.

In London, and in most other places I go, people always ask me how Clay would have come through against my old opponents, and we kick the thing around, arguing this way and that.

I think Jersey Joe Walcott would have outgeneraled him. Clay is faster, but old Joe had a better style and better brains. When he dropped the left it wasn't a mistake. It was to feint you on to a right hand that could bring the roof down on your head.

Billy Conn was like lightning. He learned his trade in the small clubs, from welter right through to heavyweight. He could have kept up with Clay because his legs knew where they were going. Only thing is, Clay and Conn would have been running away from each other so fast that there would have been no fight.

Clay, I think, would have hit too fast for Jim Braddock and would have had too many moves for max baer. Maxie packed a punch but never paid enough attention to learning his business the hard way: In camp and round the clubs.

Schmeling could have taken Clay with his right, same way he took me when I forgot to keep my left up after I'd jabbed with it in out first fight.

But, of all my old opponents, the one to give Clay the worst time would have been Rocky Marciano. The Rock didn't know too much about the boxing book, but it wasn't a book he hit me with. It was a whole library of bonecrushers.

If Marciano caught up with him, I figure Clay would get discouraged and start looking for Angelo Dundee to cut his gloves off.

Nobody ever beat Marciano, and I was wrong when I thought I was still young enough to know how. I could be wrong about Clay as well, but it's good to forget the calender once in a while and dream up ways of whipping the man who wears your old crown.

Once I happend to walk along when Clay was hollering, "I am The Greatest!" to some fellows outside the Theresa Hotel in Harlem. When he saw me, Clay came over and shouted to the crowd, "This is Joe Louis. WE is The Greatest!"

That was nice. Cassius Clay is a nice boy and a smart fighter. But I'm sure Joe Louis could have licked him.

jealousy is worse than crack sometimes

Lol, I agree.

freakzilla wrote:Lol, I agree.

Joe has to realize that you don't have to put Ali down in order to build himself up. They are both great

As a small kid, I recall reading books like "World Boxing" and "Boxing International" in the 70s. Joe always predicted Ali would lose every fight.

I think Joe Louis was always confused by Ali. Remember that Blackburn (Joe's trainer and manager) always had Joe act like the anti-thesis of Jack Johnson. Blackburn even forbid Joe to smile after fights or do any type of celebration in the ring. Now Joe watches Ali, his polar opposite, take on racism in a most militant way and Joe doesn't know why the whole world doesn't come crashing down on him. Hell, Ali even had a couple of movements behind him, supporting his objection to the Viet Nam war.

Joe was in a time he had no understanding of and that included a HW Champ that I think scared the living shit out of him, both in and out of the ring. Joe was a great champion and, in my opinion, the greatest KO artist to ever live. He also opened doors for Black HWs to achieve great things. He may've understood that, but the Joe Louis I saw and read about had his intelligence limited to the ring. Hell, he was a genius there, so that was good enough. Though I don't believe he had any understanding of the 60s or the 70s. His time had past.

I think you guys might be being a little harsh on Joe. This was written in 1966 or very early 1967. Ali was still Cassius and had not shown his chin at all. He had much more to show us. I think we would question a lot of 26-0 champs and would NEVER put them above someone like Louis so why should he?

This is still one of the best if not the best mythical matchups that boxing has.

jz_hova wrote:

freakzilla wrote:Lol, I agree.

Joe has to realize that you don't have to put Ali down in order to build himself up. They are both great

What the fuck! You do know that all Ali did was talk about how he'd kick Joe Louis' ass.

BTW, everything Louis said proved to be correct. Frazier and Norton exploited exactly the weaknesses Louis described.

GrantZilla wrote:

jz_hova wrote:

freakzilla wrote:Lol, I agree.

Joe has to realize that you don't have to put Ali down in order to build himself up. They are both great

What the fuck! You do know that all Ali did was talk about how he'd kick Joe Louis' ass.

BTW, everything Louis said proved to be correct. Frazier and Norton exploited exactly the weaknesses Louis described.

Saying you would kick someone's ass is different than this old fuck joe hating on a young undefeated Ali. There is a huge difference in Joe looking over 20 Ali fight and making a lame critique and Ali looking over Joe's entire career and feeling as though he would whoop Joe

I read it through twice and still don't see how Louis was hating on Ali. He said Ali was more sizzle than steak but again you have to remember at what point of Ali's career this was. He had never went to war yet and would've probably lost against a man 20 lbs less than him in Cooper had Dundee not pulled the glove trick.

Would you get mad if Alexis Arguello had wrote an article on how he would've beat Floyd at 130 when Floyd was 26-0? I wouldn't have. We expect the GOAT's of weight classes to beat young champions of the same weight class. Sure Ali proved a lot from that point in his career on but it is still debatable who would've won.

I've heard some justifications about Joe's comments due to Ali's 26-0 record at the time. Interesting. Those 26 wins included 2 victories over a thought to be invincible Sonny Liston (HOF Fighter), outclassing Floyd Patterson (HOF Fighter), A sensational 3rd round KO of Cleveland Williams (A feared and respected contender who gave Liston all he could handle in two fights.), a 2nd round KO of Brian London (Who gave Floyd Patterson difficulties) and George Chuvalo ( A man who was never knocked down. Marciano was quoted as saying, "If all fights would go until somebody quit, Chavalo would be the greatest fighter of all times."). Also, please include a rematch with Henry Cooper in which Cooper was outclassed and stopped in round 6.

This was the Ali who was closest to being unbeatable. Joe Louis never saw anyone back away from punches as Ali did. He (Joe) also compared Ali to Billy Conn?? Conn was a great fighter, but no Ali.

This is a case of quality over quanity if I ever saw one. Let's not forget that "Sugar Ray Leonard" was 32 -1 during his first retirement. Not a great record, however when you put in stoppage victories over Benitez, Duran and Hearns, it's a HOF record.

Let's be honest here. This was the 60s. Ali was one of this eras favorite sons. Joe's time had past. Everyone was protesting every damn thing. If you didn't take a stand on an issue, you were considered to be on the wrong side of the issue. Joe was just a fighter. Yes, a great fighter, but just a fighter. The 60's saw Ali as sort of a revolution.

I think Joe's comments are based on envy and the fear of being in another era which depicted him in a whole different image.

I understand your counterpoint Frank but out of all those Ali victims, do you think any of them outside of Liston has a chance against Joe either? I sure don't. Patterson was more of a light heavy and Williams, London, and Chuvalo were all just contenders even if they were very good ones. Add in the fact there were rumblings how legit the 2nd Liston fight is and I understand Louis's comments very well. No great fighter will ever predict himself losing and most boxers with power always can convince themselves they can catch up to the finesse speedster.

UBeeg9cats wrote:I understand your counterpoint Frank but out of all those Ali victims, do you think any of them outside of Liston has a chance against Joe either? I sure don't. Patterson was more of a light heavy and Williams, London, and Chuvalo were all just contenders even if they were very good ones. Add in the fact there were rumblings how legit the 2nd Liston fight is and I understand Louis's comments very well. No great fighter will ever predict himself losing and most boxers with power always can convince themselves they can catch up to the finesse speedster.

Thanks UBeeg. I understand your points too. This is how I learn things. Listening to opposite points of view. As long as I'm understood, I'm happy.

Ali called Louis a Uncle Tom, so fuck this talk of Louis putting poor Ali down. That's all Ali did was put people down that didn't kiss his ass or go by his beleifs. Even the guy that helped support his ass when he was in exile.

Frank wrote:

UBeeg9cats wrote:I understand your counterpoint Frank but out of all those Ali victims, do you think any of them outside of Liston has a chance against Joe either? I sure don't. Patterson was more of a light heavy and Williams, London, and Chuvalo were all just contenders even if they were very good ones. Add in the fact there were rumblings how legit the 2nd Liston fight is and I understand Louis's comments very well. No great fighter will ever predict himself losing and most boxers with power always can convince themselves they can catch up to the finesse speedster.

Thanks UBeeg. I understand your points too. This is how I learn things. Listening to opposite points of view. As long as I'm understood, I'm happy.

I feel the same way my friend. I am a boxing novice compared to most so I can learn from any post about past fighters. I enjoy debating but not arguing.

GrantZilla wrote:Ali called Louis a Uncle Tom, so fuck this talk of Louis putting poor Ali down. That's all Ali did was put people down that didn't kiss his ass or go by his beleifs. Even the guy that helped support his ass when he was in exile.

I understand how Ali can rub some people the wrong way.

Louis' take is exactly what you'd expect from an old school fighter - Ali did do things wrong in the ring, but got away with them because he was so fast and so talented. No one who puts that much of themselves into mastering a craft like Joe did in boxing wants to see someone break the rules and still win. Especially if that someone is as flashy and arrogant as Ali was.

But the fact is Ali proved time and again that he could adapt and do unpredictable things in the ring, not to mention the mental game inside and outside the ropes. I really feel that Ali could have beaten any heavyweight ever, based both on his talent and on how he could manipulate the other guy.

If you want to talk pure boxing technique and skill, Louis gets the edge no doubt. But who was the Greatest? You know.

Tobe wrote:Louis' take is exactly what you'd expect from an old school fighter - Ali did do things wrong in the ring, but got away with them because he was so fast and so talented. No one who puts that much of themselves into mastering a craft like Joe did in boxing wants to see someone break the rules and still win. Especially if that someone is as flashy and arrogant as Ali was.

But the fact is Ali proved time and again that he could adapt and do unpredictable things in the ring, not to mention the mental game inside and outside the ropes. I really feel that Ali could have beaten any heavyweight ever, based both on his talent and on how he could manipulate the other guy. If you want to talk pure boxing technique and skill, Louis gets the edge no doubt. But who was the Greatest? You know.

I agree 100 percent. Somebody else had to make these points,Tobe. People are tired of me talking about Muhammad Ali.