How Sonny Liston would've done against todays HWs

Sonny Listons kryptonite was a quick-fisted counter puncher with the chin to stand in and land the counter. (think a prime Holyfield). Nobody on your list fits that bill. I think he take Wvlad and haye in the same round. His fight with Vitali probably goes all 15 though and is a jab-fest.

IF the likes of Corrie Sanders can knock Wlad out, Liston would kill him in 1 round. Wlad would have lost the fight even before he got in the ring. He's very mentaly weak when pressed.

I agree, toughest fight would be Vitali. But Vitali not as big of a puncher as Cleveland Williams. Vitali get's stoppages by beating fat, slow, bums down until they give up. If it's same Sonny that got in the ring with Patterson, Vitali in for a long night.

In my opinion, Sonny Liston is one of the most underrated athletes in history. Sure, he had the bully complex and could not last in a competitive fight, however to quote Angelo Dundee, "The only fighter who could lick Sonny, did." No, I don't think Ali is the only fighter who could've beaten Sonny, but I have a damn hard time thinking of anyone else. Foreman and Louis make the list, then I start to draw a blank. Maybe Jersey Joe and Ezzard Charles? I know there's one particular board member who will disagree with this (smile) but I can't see many ATG heavyweights even going five rounds with Liston. Maybe Marciano could smother his power (ask Joe Louis.). This guy took 8 teeth out with a jab. I mean, this is something that actually happened. Jack Johnson? Ok, then who?

As far as Sonny against today's HW's, Hoyfield's fights against Tyson make him a good bet to get into a fight with Sonny. If it's competitive, Evander wins. Both Klits go on the same night. Tyson goes in one or two (yeah I know, dmar. You don't agree. smile). Foreman vs. Liston? The thought brings up visions of earthquakes, not fights.

Foreman couldn't beat Liston. Young Foreman sparred with an old Liston, and said Liston was only guy that took his punches and shook his head, saying "that the best you got."

Liston is such an enigma, because I don't think we'll ever know how good he realy was. He was old when fought Ali. And the mob tie and total shadyness that was involved in both those fights.

I still think Liston threw both of them. So much shadyness around it. So much Liston called into Congress after first fight to state his case he didn't take a dive. Fight stunk of fix so much no state wanted any part of rematch, so held in basketball gym for christ sake.

Add on Liston was not making Carbo money. People considered him a thug, his fights become predictable because just knock guys out. But Clay had become a media darling. Add on Carbo took a piece of Clay's next two fights when signed on to fight Liston the first time, and realy get's shady.

GrantZilla wrote:Foreman couldn't beat Liston. Young Foreman sparred with an old Liston, and said Liston was only guy that took his punches and shook his head, saying "that the best you got."

Liston is such an enigma, because I don't think we'll ever know how good he realy was. He was old when fought Ali. And the mob tie and total shadyness that was involved in both those fights.

I still think Liston threw both of them. So much shadyness around it. So much Liston called into Congress after first fight to state his case he didn't take a dive. Fight stunk of fix so much no state wanted any part of rematch, so held in basketball gym for christ sake.

Add on Liston was not making Carbo money. People considered him a thug, his fights become predictable because just knock guys out. But Clay had become a media darling. Add on Carbo took a piece of Clay's next two fights when signed on to fight Liston the first time, and realy get's shady.

It all makes sense, Grant. There's nothing anyone can say to counter any of those points. I just have my own belief and I don't believe either fight was fixed. Here are my reasons.

I. Liston - Clay I: (a) Ali (then Clay) puts on the most incredible exhibition of boxing this observer ever witnessed in the HW division. (b) Liston puts a chemical on his gloves and tries to blind Clay. In the 5th round, he went all out on his body (Clay's head was still elusive.). Does this seem like a guy trying to throw a fight? (c) Clay went onto become Ali, arguably the greatest HW Champ ever. (d) Gangsters are also business men. Carbo could've easily had a piece of Ali's fights without deciding the result. Ali was not helpless in dealing with gangsters. (See Elijah Muhammad and "The Black Mafia.")

Also, in Ali - Liston II, it seemed like Liston got hit with a punch he didn't see. If it was Camacho hitting a fellow lightweight with a sneaky left hook and putting him out, nobody talks of a fix. However, take into account that Ali was actually bigger than Sonny Liston and hit him with a punch that a "Life Magazine" photographer bought to life with a photo that actually showed Liston being lifted off the ground.

Finally, the punch, though knocking Liston down, produced no more than a flash knockdown. It was Ali running around the ring above Liston that had Liston returning to the canvas every time he tried to get up. He feared Ali would hit him on the way up. Also, Jersey Joe (referee) panicked and incorrectly stopped the fight. The count begins once a fighter is escorted to a neutral corner. Upon Sonny getting up, Walcott ran to the timekeeper and was told Liston was down for more than 10 seconds. Yeah sure, with Ali standing over him and daring him to get up. It was a horrible job of officiating by Walcott and the time keeper. The only thing that points to a fix for me was Liston's passive attitude following the fight. No complaint about the count or anything else. I think Liston was confused but another argument can be made.

When a fight is fixed, some things just don't make sense. As my father would say, it makes cents and dollars to somebody, just not the viewers. However, in my view, the Ali - Liston fights make perfect sense.

sonny liston did many things well.good body puncher with authority and one of boxings crushing left jabs.overall he was a better fighter then any heavy today no doubt.who would beat who ill avoid that disgussion.there are some myths about liston and for that matter clev williams that at least to me but with talks with several other folks they share my thoughts a lot..1.liston was not this great puncher as stated..ill get back to that later..cleve williams koed nobodies.what we call ham and eggers in the old days.in fact ever contender he fought he not only didnt ko them he lost to them..terrel was stoped well before he was a contender.
liston lost the first fight to ali..he quit not because of a injury because he was starting to get hit often with punches that were starting to hurt him.he quit in frustration knowing that in a few rounds he would get stopped or go down.he wanted to save himself from further embaresement..not only are thoses my thoughts but in one of my talks with marciano he had similar thoughts..fight two please..we disgussed that before in detail..no one knows the reason why sonny did what he did.
liston like tyson was a frontrunner..looking at his knockouts and the several fights he had that i saw live to me sonny was yes heavyhanded.big fists..poor poor leverage and delivery.no devistating shots..a great puncher.nope.a good one.yes.potential to be a great puncher.of course.view the first patterson knockout and you should see what i mean..floyds chin of course was well we know what it was..
liston had talent for sure.he wasnt to bad in the boxing department and had respectable abilty to slip punches...sonny wasnt this indestrutable forse that the sports writters created..a dam good fighter a great one.0i think so..his chin good not great..cleve williams is not a test since williams outside of tomatoe cans or third tier fighters koed no one.knocked down no one.liston was koed not once but twice in sparing by up and coming mac foster..in the leotis martin fight where he was knocked cold the round or two before you could see sonny starting to lose confidence..the frontrunner syndrom..
lol ok enough controversy in my post on this..liston was yes overall far better then any HW today.why that writter brought it up in his news article i dont know..why i say that is liston was far better then any heavyweight outside of a dozen or so in history..puting his myth behind etc etc this was one great fighter and to me only thats plenty good..

dmar5143 wrote:sonny liston did many things well.good body puncher with authority and one of boxings crushing left jabs.overall he was a better fighter then any heavy today no doubt.who would beat who ill avoid that disgussion.there are some myths about liston and for that matter clev williams that at least to me but with talks with several other folks they share my thoughts a lot..1.liston was not this great puncher as stated..ill get back to that later..cleve williams koed nobodies.what we call ham and eggers in the old days.in fact ever contender he fought he not only didnt ko them he lost to them..terrel was stoped well before he was a contender.
liston lost the first fight to ali..he quit not because of a injury because he was starting to get hit often with punches that were starting to hurt him.he quit in frustration knowing that in a few rounds he would get stopped or go down.he wanted to save himself from further embaresement..not only are thoses my thoughts but in one of my talks with marciano he had similar thoughts..fight two please..we disgussed that before in detail..no one knows the reason why sonny did what he did.
liston like tyson was a frontrunner..looking at his knockouts and the several fights he had that i saw live to me sonny was yes heavyhanded.big fists..poor poor leverage and delivery.no devistating shots..a great puncher.nope.a good one.yes.potential to be a great puncher.of course.view the first patterson knockout and you should see what i mean..floyds chin of course was well we know what it was..
liston had talent for sure.he wasnt to bad in the boxing department and had respectable abilty to slip punches...sonny wasnt this indestrutable forse that the sports writters created..a dam good fighter a great one.0i think so..his chin good not great..cleve williams is not a test since williams outside of tomatoe cans or third tier fighters koed no one.knocked down no one.liston was koed not once but twice in sparing by up and coming mac foster..in the leotis martin fight where he was knocked cold the round or two before you could see sonny starting to lose confidence..the frontrunner syndrom..
lol ok enough controversy in my post on this..liston was yes overall far better then any HW today.why that writter brought it up in his news article i dont know..why i say that is liston was far better then any heavyweight outside of a dozen or so in history..puting his myth behind etc etc this was one great fighter and to me only thats plenty good..

I never knew that. Dmar, was that before or after the Ali fights?

Would Liston's style have to change though?

Yes he has freaky length so he could get his jab off, but could he carry the same intimidation factor being a smaller man today?

I'll admit I know Sonny as the guy who lost to Ali and a monster in his time, but how was he as a boxer? If he was a bully, I don't know how much success he could have doing against some of these bigger guys. Could he box and punch?

frank before the ali fights.

dmar5143 wrote:frank before the ali fights.

Being drilled by Mac Foster is hardly a comment on the strength of Sonny's chin. Mac Foster coulod really, really punch.

Liston did not put shit on his gloves. That is a Urban Myth, and even Dundee said it's BS. Liston had lotion on his shoulder that got into Ali's eyes.

GrantZilla wrote:Liston did not put shit on his gloves. That is a Urban Myth, and even Dundee said it's BS. Liston had lotion on his shoulder that got into Ali's eyes.

Yep. Dundee even said he took Alis gloves and rubbed them in his own eyes. Nothing on the gloves.

Honestly, I think Liston was told to go a number rounds, and quit. The Liston that fought Ali is not the same Liston that beat Patterson for HW Championship.

How is it that Ali could win the jab war at a distance with Liston? Ali's reach was '78 or '80, depending on who did measuring.

Liston's reach was '84. But Liston.

Liston best weapon was his jab and his right hand. Yet for some reason Liston threw a total of maybe five right hands, and they were not even trademark ones. More like slapping rights. Liston always threw a lot of right hands, except in the Ali fight.

Add on after he quit on his stool, Liston bodyguard ask him why he didn't tell him it was a fix, and Liston stated, "With your big mouth, we would have both ended up in the river wearing concrete shoes...I just did what I was told."

lets add what liston said to the excuse by fighters thread we have..a way for liston if indeed he said that to provide him with an excuse why he got trounced in a legit fight.
its not uncommon for a much smaller fighter to outjab a bigger fighter with a longer reach..how did pep outjab all thoses guys..in this case ali was the taller man and a moving target..reach is overated at times.in this case lets say 4 inches..but reach then was measured from finger tip to finger tip..4 inches for 2 arms.liston had huge hands so lets say his middle finger tip to tip was a inch larger then alis..that gives liston just a one inch advantage with the jab..no advantage at all.
liston was stunned and staggered twice in the later rounds..ali started to load up on him and hit him often .his jab was now landing with authority as well as combinations..liston was running out of gas ..the inevinable was close at hand..he got beat honest and fair.
he was the same fighter that fought patterson.patterson had a weak chin.ali did not.patterson with that chin came to liston..ali used angles and speed to outjab liston..liston further had to work much harder then he did in other fights cause of alis movement.to me this fight was alis finest hour dispite wanting to quit.
i feel its highly unlikely liston said that especialy if the bodyguard had a big mouth..liston had been around and knows better to say that to a loud mouth..the guy may of made it up to sound important for big mouths cant wait to tell all the people he knows..liston understood this as a street smart ex con..nope the fight was legit the story fiction..