THE NO TALENT HW CHAMPS

theres no doubt todays crop of heavies minus the k brothers is the worst of all time.in the past the hw division has had several pockets of lets say 4-5 years where the division was bad indeed as far as decent contenders.if we take the k brothers out of it the past several years we would of seen the lineal title exchange hands several times with mediocrity of worse similar to the era bewteen tunney and louis where canera baer braddock sharkey were champs..lets exaime the real lineal champs of the past .the real bad no talent ones and see how they would fair today amoung the hws of the k brothers era minus the k brothers.ill start where i feel the modern hw division started.the end of willards era against dempsey.1.jess williard.hes as big as the klits.he had tons of guts.a decent jab and agility for a big guy.he lacked experience and was mediocre at best.today or the past 7 years he would fit in the middle of the pack.win some lose some.2. max baer .another guy with guts.baer had no jab no boxing abilty lousy footwork .he threw combos like the rock em sock em robot game years ago..baer had one quality.he could punch big time with that right hand.big enough if he hit either wlad or vitali it would be good night irene.outside of that baer realy didny know how to fight.he could of possibily semi-dominated or dominated this era minus the brothers.haye would have a excellent chance of a win.3.braddock and sharkey.bradock could box.he knew a bit about fighting but was mediocre at best.he did have some talent.sharkey has a career loaded with controversy.mediocre also.both would be in the middle of the pack.win some lose some..ingemar johannson..not the great puncher that some let us to believe.decent perhaps.glass jaw big time poor defence no stanima.another words a little to no talent bum.like braddock and sharkey hed win some but i feel would lose more.leon spinks.this is a disgrace.also a disgrace on alis record.i dont care if ali was 50 or so theres no way he should lose or be held even for 30 rounds against a no talent bum.glass jaw big time.cant punch.no defence at all.no experience.no nothing outside of stanima and a swarming style.just about every contender or pretender of the last 7 years should kick his ass..finaly shanon briggs.yes lets say hes lineaneal.briggs did fight somewhat in this era over his long extended career.no stanima fair puncher a touch of abilty.again he may of semi dominated for 3 or 4 years.
incredible as it seems as bad as this era is and yes its the worst there were real champs as bad or worst then the guys today.so bad that an inexperienced tyson fury of today could of possibly beaton a few of them.
this will change hopefully in a few years.hopefully.i forgot canera.guts indeed.a good jab.could move a bit for a few steps.stronger then both k brothers bigger all around also.could not punch at all.size and guts alone today hed be in the middle of the pack.think a smaller valuez.

Good thread, dmar. I hope that as the other mediocre eras came to an end, so will this one.

the only i disagree with is baer. he wasnt the most technically sound fighter but i see him dominating this era. vitali's chin may help him win but baer would for sure KO wlad. he had some bad fights where he didnt take seriously so thats what the K bros have on him.

HW division is only considered bad right now because the two best HWs are not exciting and fight entirly in Germany, for obvious reasons.

There has only been really two eras where the HW division had a lot of depth, 70s and 90s. Jack Johnson had no real compeition as Champ. Neither did Dempsey. Joe Louis had very little as well. Same with Larry Holmes.

We scuff when the Klits fight a Cruiser, but HWs Champs use to fight Light HWs, the Cruiserweight of that time. Ali lost to a Light HW. Joe Louis damn near did. And Marcanio's best fights were against former Light HWs. Larry Holmes lost to a Light HW. Tyson lost to a former Cruiser in Holyfield.

i have to disagree a bit here grant.first you have gone on record dozens of times complaining that this is the worst hw division ever.now its ok.fact is it is the worst ever.the heavy division overall out of the traditional 8 plus the 140 pound division for the most part has been boxings worst division over the years.the 70s and the 90s were not the only era where the division was so called stacked.the 60s were also.ali was in his prime liston and frazier patterson quarry were all good fighters.the second bunch chuvalo clev williams machen terell and a few others knew how to fight and did some things very well.todays crop doesnt at all.the very early 50s had louis yes it still was louis marciano walcott charles and rex layne untill rocky destroyed him.
marciano esentualy and today was a light heavy and 75 percent of his fights he was outweighed.a few other fights even..what 175 pounder beat ali.no 175 pounder ever did.dont tell me spinks then ill say ali was also a former lh like spinks in the amatuers.thats if leon started at lh..
as noted in my post the division has had times where there was a poor crop for a while in the past.at least that poor crop could do some things with talent .and were in condition and in shape...
and in the past if you took away the dominate champ the divisions had for the most part acceptable talent left.today myself i cant say that if you took away the k brothers..we may be a few years away from the comback in that division and the reason is not the brothers no longer fighting either.

The 60s HWs were not that great. Patterson's glass chin makes Wlad's chin look like Marv Hagler's. He was a protected Champion got dealt with by Liston. I beleive Patterson still holds the most knockdowns and knockout losses for a HW Champion.

Liston was old and on the decline by the time he become Champ. Williams and Patterson were never the same afer the beatdown losses to Liston. What is considered Ali's best performance against Williams was after Williams had been out for over a year and had nerve damage from being shot.

Yes, HWs today suck. But if we had an exciting Champ and not two brothers tha fight entirly in Germany, it would not be nearly as bad.

GrantZilla wrote:The 60s HWs were not that great. Patterson's glass chin makes Wlad's chin look like Marv Hagler's. He was a protected Champion got dealt with by Liston. I beleive Patterson still holds the most knockdowns and knockout losses for a HW Champion.

Liston was old and on the decline by the time he become Champ. Williams and Patterson were never the same afer the beatdown losses to Liston. What is considered Ali's best performance against Williams was after Williams had been out for over a year and had nerve damage from being shot.

Yes, HWs today suck. But if we had an exciting Champ and not two brothers tha fight entirly in Germany, it would not be nearly as bad.

my main problem with that theory is that there have been great HW champs in the history of boxing but none have dominated like the klits. for years now they havent even had close fights. even jack johnson or dempsey who didnt fight in a great era of HWs still fought some solid opponents who gave them a fight. if this isnt the worst HW division in the history of boxing then the klits have to be top 10 all time of HWs because they have dominated like nobody else.

GrantZilla wrote:The 60s HWs were not that great. Patterson's glass chin makes Wlad's chin look like Marv Hagler's. He was a protected Champion got dealt with by Liston. I beleive Patterson still holds the most knockdowns and knockout losses for a HW Champion.

Liston was old and on the decline by the time he become Champ. Williams and Patterson were never the same afer the beatdown losses to Liston. What is considered Ali's best performance against Williams was after Williams had been out for over a year and had nerve damage from being shot.

Yes, HWs today suck. But if we had an exciting Champ and not two brothers tha fight entirly in Germany, it would not be nearly as bad.

....patterson could fight.he never held the record for most times being stoped.charles for example was down more times and was koed more.so know your boxing history before making a statement.i can downgrade the 70s like you did the 60s but its a unfair assement on both eras if that was done.so now the era isnt that bad especialy if we had one exciting fighter who didnt fight in germany.give me a break.either its the worst ever like you said dozens of times or its not that bad.make up your mind.on patterson he took a beating from ingo before he fought liston.he was never the same.realy after liston.actualy he fought better opposition then before beating chuvalo koing henry cooper fought 2 tough fights with quarry won over machen fought ali and for 4 rounds could not move at all and could not straighten up his back.inbetween rounds his handlers picked him up several times trying to get it in place and finaly the fight was stoped without floyd being on the canvas nor hurt during the fight.
i made a post saying to fans dont dispair and implied the heavies will be back with3- 4 or more guys that are good and on any day all of them could win.i also said that history has had pockets of bad times in other eras but what does mr negative reply he downgrades several great hw champs of the past.great contribution as usual.

again grant knowledge of boxing history is better then a mistake written on a boxing site.charles in his entire career was down 33 times i believe.charles indeed was a modern boxing champ.
so that link you provided has incorrect information.maybe they ment but didnt say in title fights as champ and challenger but that number would be around 16.

dmar5143 wrote:again grant knowledge of boxing history is better then a mistake written on a boxing site.charles in his entire career was down 33 times i believe.charles indeed was a modern boxing champ.
so that link you provided has incorrect information.maybe they ment but didnt say in title fights as champ and challenger but that number would be around 16.

It's refering to the most at heavyweight!

And the reason why this is the worst era of HWs is because outside the Klits none of the top guys will fight each other. Arreola-Adamek was the last fight two top ten HWs fought that didn't involve a Klitschko.

Thompson is getting a rematch having fought nobodies. Arreola has fought total bums and is line to fight a Klit. Povetkin is going to fight Rahman.

There's some good fights that can be made but won't happen. Arreola against Haye or Mitchell Helenius against Fury. Povetkin against Boystov.

Arreola has fought total bums and is line to fight a Klit. Povetkin is going to fight Rahman.

There's some good fights that can be made but won't happen. Arreola against Haye or Mitchell Helenius against Fury. Povetkin against Boystov.mp.it didnt say just fighting at heavyweight.....grant first the article was refering career wise.it didnt say knocked down the most fighting only at heavyweight.so there wrong.
i agree the problem or one of them is the lack of contenders fighting each other but if they did in reality you have slop fighting slop.povetkin vs boystov isnt going to excite anybody.povetkin is slop and the condition he came in against huck was awfull.helenuis is slow and cant do anything but punch.cant jab cant move cant box cant slip a punch..fury is still a progress in the making.he can do some things decent but needs work and seasoning..price is in the same category.he can punch.his movement has some flexabilty.he can jab.hes to inexperienced at this stage but wlads giving him a shoutout..price gets hit to often for my taste by the opposition hes fighting.dont rush the kid.hes raw talent and needs 2 -2n half years and 8-10 fights with slight upgrades to mold that raw talent..mitchell again is developing at a sensible pace.hes more advanced then the other two but still 4 or 5 fights and 18 months away from taking on a top2- 3 guy and be in a position where hes expected to win.those three plus perhaps 2 more that could arise on the sceen can bring the division back.patience is needed by there promoters and handlers.they need to refine the raw talent in thoses guys.why kill off the future of the division by puting them in a fight there not ready for.we can have a very competive division in 2 or so years.patience and developement please..haye vs aerola is a good matchup.
i dont knock chris for fighting tuneups at all.a kudo to him for being active..if price and mitchell had the seasoning now that im talking about and they dont well if they did there chances of beating one or both the brothers would be very good.
i would not mind seeing whats left in the contenders fighting each other and often..maybe one can improve from slop to half way decent but in reality you have bum 1 fighting bum2.ive seen that movie before and its not exciting.yes its better then whats happening now but lets not kid ourselves into thinking this will generate excitement big enthusiasm and interest.it wont.slop is slop..talent for the most part can do that..patience fans.dont rush fury price or even mitchell.that unfortunetly may happen.dont destroy the future the near future for a moment of now.its a mistake.

GrantZilla wrote:HW division is only considered bad right now because the two best HWs are not exciting and fight entirly in Germany, for obvious reasons.

There has only been really two eras where the HW division had a lot of depth, 70s and 90s. Jack Johnson had no real compeition as Champ. Neither did Dempsey. Joe Louis had very little as well. Same with Larry Holmes.

We scuff when the Klits fight a Cruiser, but HWs Champs use to fight Light HWs, the Cruiserweight of that time. Ali lost to a Light HW. Joe Louis damn near did. And Marcanio's best fights were against former Light HWs. Larry Holmes lost to a Light HW. Tyson lost to a former Cruiser in Holyfield.

Grant, I think you have a great mind for boxing but this particular post is full of holes.

1. Jack Johnson cleared out the "Black or Colored" HW division before he ever challenged for the Caucasian title. He fought and defeated Sam Langford along with a host of other black fighters and cleaned out the division. The only other HW champs to take on the best Black fighters of their day were Ali and Marciano.

2. Marciano's best effort was probably against Jersey Joe Walcott. He was no Light Heavyweight. Ezzard Charles was such an incredibly special fighter that to dismiss him as a LH is a mistake. When he did become HW champion, he was a legitimate HW, and a great one.

3. Larry Holmes and Ali were in the twilight of their careers when they lost to the Spinks brothers. I doubt that you would predict a victory for either Spinks brother if they fought either one of these fighters in or even anywhere near their primes. The Klits make their living fighting flabby Cruisers that make the Spinks brothers look like Foreman or Louis in their prime.

4. Tyson lost to a Cruiserweight in Evander Holyfield? In my opinion, this is not an accurate observation but this is not your fault. The Cruisers have confused people for years. Example? Back in the 60s, there was no CW division. HWs like Ali were 190 or 200 in their first HW fight. It was very common for HW champs to grow into the division. By their 14th or 15th fight, they weighed in at 205 or 210. Holyfield was always a Heavyweight in the rough. He fought Dwight Braxton in only his 12th fight. This victory was a great accomplishment by Evander, however he was on his way to the HW division after destroying Braxton in their 2nd meeting and beating Carlos DeLeon. As expected, Evander not only grew into a HW, but became an especially strong HW. By the time he fought Tyson, his average weight was between 220 and 225, all muscle.

5. Holmes had competition however he either showed little interest in fighting the best HWs of his day or was blocked by Don King. Either way, he never met Pinky Thomas, Greg Page, Michael Dokes or even Tony Tubbs. However, the fighters that Holmes did fight gave him headaches. Go back and watch his fights against Weaver, Witherspoon, Snipes, Carl Williams, Bonecrusher Smith, etc. He had a helluva time keeping the belt against a great deal of fighters. One thing I'll say about Holmes. He'd fight to the death once he got into the ring.

Other than those little bits of business, your post was excellent. LOL

frank very very good accurate points.

My point is, while Johnson was Champ, he had no real compeition. So much they had to create a "Great White Hope"

Dempsey had no real compeition either as Champ, and put the HW title on ice for years.

And only reason I brought up HWs fighting Light HWs was to show that it was nothing new for HW Champs to fight fighter's from a lower division.

HWs today suck because they won't fight each other and improve. Instead they get undeserved title shot after title shot against The Klits. What has Arreola done since his beatdown against Vitali to improve? He's still too fat and he hasn't fought anybody, outside Adamek, who he lost too.