Stuff that annoys me (recycled)

We have all heard them. Things people say when they talk about boxing that are just un-true. Not only that, but the conversation to correct them are long, predicable and too damned irritating to keep correcting every fool that says them. Here are mine. Feel free to add your own.

1. Mike Tyson was a great inside fighter. NO HE WASNT!! Mike Tyson in his absolute prime would be outfought inside by the 72 year old Joe Frazier of TODAY! Tyson was a master of "mid-range". He used terrific headmovement and quickness to close from long-range (where he could not fight either) to mid-range where he would blast off his punches and then fall into a clinch at close range.

2. Willie Pepp once won a round without throwing a punch. No he didnt. At least not a round that he remembers or anyone else can seem to find. Pepp is one of the top 5-10 fighters to EVER fight. I love the guy. He never pulled this particular feat off though. The story really gained its foothold thanks to noted historian and blatant liar, Bert Randolph Sugar. Bert wrote a fictional pice on the Jackie Graves fight that he failed to tell anyone was a work of fiction. Not until Monte Cox shredded it claim by claim and line by line, did Bert finally come clean that it was just " a really god story to tell".

3. Roy Jones Jr. lost 25-30 pounds of muscle to come back and fight Tarver. BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This one annoys me because Jones weighed in for Ruiz at 193. On the night he fought Bernard Hopkins for the 160 pound title, he weighed 186 pounds. (confirmed by HBO and Jones himself during the broadcast of Hopkins vs Brown). That is 7 pounds difference. Jones routinely fought in the low 190's when he was at the 175 pound limit. To make heavyweight Jones did what Evander Holyfield and Michael Spinks did. He went high protien and lifted weights to put on some muscle. Only about 5-7 pounds. Then, to fight Tarver, he just quit lifting and did what he always did. Dry out 48 hours before the fight and then re-hydrate. At 193, if he lost 25 pounds of muscle as people say, he would be ON THE VERGE OF DEATH!! Take any athlete and then subtract 1/8 of thier body weight and you get the idea. Lennox Lewis from 250 to 211, Evander Holyfield from 207 to 156, Marvin Hagler from 160 to 140! Get the idea! ITS BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!! Medical science tells us a 14% weight loss i that perido of time is potentially fatal.

4. Hagler gave away the first 5 rounds against Leonard. NO he didnt. He gave away the first two. He wobbled Ray in the third with a sneaky uppercut and won it as well as the 5th and the 4th was a close one. At worst he went 2-3 in the first 5 and 3-2 is very possible. Hagler lost the fight because Ray had the perfect game plan to steal rounds and the judges, like everyone, gave Ray a ton of credit for not getting run over.

5. Lennox Lewis had a great jab. Nope. Lennox was outjabbed by Ray Mercer all night long. He was also out-jabbed by the Ghost of Evander Holyfield in the re-match for extended periods of time. Zjelko Mavrovich also out-jabbed Lewis all night long. Henry Akinwande did well with his jab too. The list goes on and on. Now, among the all-time great jabbers, who ever got outjabbed that often? Holmes? Ali? Whitaker? Pepp? Nope. Lewis had a LONG jab and a powerful one, not a great one.

6. Roy Jones cleaned out 3 divisions. This is another one that bugs me. He had TWO FIGHTS AT 160!! TWO! Thats not cleaning a division out. Not one that included Julian Jackson and company. At 168 he beat James Toney and.........??? Nigel Benn? Frankie Liles? Chris Eubank? Steve Collins? Joe Calzahe? Michael Nunn? Gracianno Rochigianni? Nope. He did get around to Vinnie Paz and Antoine Byrd though. At 175 he never even won the championship. Truth is, Jones came closest to cleaning out the 175 division, but he still didnt fight THE MAN at 175. He was great. All-time great? Very debatable.

7. Gerry Cooney was just "Great White Hype". Gerry Cooney didnt achieve his potential and at heart was never really a fighter. But the man could FIGHT! In todays division he would be a LOCK to beat everyone not named Klitschko and FAVORITE to beat one of those guys. Cooney,according to Larry Holmes and George Foreman, hit harder than anyone they ever fought with Holmes making the exception of only Ernie Shavers. Between them these guys fought a dozen world champions and a handful of HOFers. Add in the fact that Cooney was a good jabber, had some skill, and was pretty athletic and I just dont know how he can be dismissed as "all hype".

8. Marvin Hagler was a flat-footed slugger that *insert name here* could outbox if SRL did. The guy that Sugar Ray survived 12 rounds with was not Marvin Hagler. That was what father time and an impossibly tough and long fight career had left of him. In his prime, Marvin Hagler looked more like Michael Nunn with POWER in both hands. He was a cute southpaw boxer and mover who looked to jab his way to a decision win, but just had so much lead in his fists that the other guy usually didnt survive long enough to lose that decision. I think it is one of the great injustices and tragedies in the sport that Marvin is remembered as a menacing, iron chinned, bald-headed, stalking slugger rather than the tactical and stylistic master boxer he really was.

9. Pernell Whitaker and Willie Pepp were soft hitting fighters. This is another one that bugs me. From the time he was an amateur people have thought this of Pernell and I hear people say it about Pepp too. It tells me that people dont really KNOW these guys. BOTH were tough as NAILS, and thats actually an insult to thier toughness, and BOTH could bang! Nobody, and I mean NOBODY ever ran over these guys. Why? Cause at some point, usually the first time they tried to run over them, they got hit HARD and decided it was better to die the death of a thousand cuts (punches) than get decapitated by trying that again.

10. Gimme some of yours.

lawyer in regards to lennox's jab do you feel that he drastically improved it while under the tutalege of emmanuel and if so, would that jab have presented problems for the elite of the all time heavies.

Hey you mind if I put this nice little rant in our archive?

Lewis had Steward with him when he fought these guys. It can be argued very well that Mercer and Holyfield (2nd fight) BOTH beat Lewis on the strength of thier jabs alone.

Lewis developed a LOT under Steward and his jab got better (he didnt paw as much as he did with it under Correa) but it never got GREAT. Stewards greatest contribution to Lennox as a fighter was improving Lewis foot-work from atrocious to just average.

boxinglawyer wrote: Lewis had Steward with him when he fought these guys. It can be argued very well that Mercer and Holyfield (2nd fight) BOTH beat Lewis on the strength of thier jabs alone.

Lewis developed a LOT under Steward and his jab got better (he didnt paw as much as he did with it under Correa) but it never got GREAT. Stewards greatest contribution to Lennox as a fighter was improving Lewis foot-work from atrocious to just average.

lol

Soonermark890 wrote:Hey you mind if I put this nice little rant in our archive?

nope

boxinglawyer wrote:

Soonermark890 wrote:Hey you mind if I put this nice little rant in our archive?

nope

Thanks.

something that annoys me is the over emphasis by fans and writers on KO artists. They fail to recognize the truth about such guys, that being they have to be able to outbox other fighters at some point or they hit their ceiling.

There are many guys that can KO cans, journeymen, and fellow prospects on the way towards the top 10-15 of their division

There aren't nearly as many guys that can KO other top 5-15 competition in their weight class.

There are very few guys that can KO top 5 competition in their weight class

There are only a handful of guys that can KO top competition from the entire sport

Boxing Lawyer! Where the hell have you been?! We’re all pretty busy, but were you running for a Senate seat? (smile). Well, if you were, I guess you lost, which is bad for you but good for us. Welcome to the board.

That said, I think this is an excellent thread and miraculously, I agree with most of your points. This is some gutsy stuff, guy. As I said, I agree with “most “ of your points.

1.Gerry Cooney: Cooney was a tragic figure. He had a left hook that was a gift from God, however Victor Valle (Spelling?) was never capable of teaching him even the most basic of boxing fundamentals. This is evident when watching Gerry and Cooney is not hesitant on admitting this. Dennis Rappaport was only interested in promoting the “Great White Hope” controversy. When you have a used car salesman as a manager, you shouldn’t expect much more. Gerry seemed to be too sensitive to fire anyone and ruined what may’ve been a more successful career, however, in the words of your guy Larry Holmes, “Frankly, he don’t take much of a punch.” You can look at the Spinks –Cooney fight to validate that. It should be said that Gerry has a heart of gold and was the only millionaire fighter I know to start a trust fund just for financially troubled, retired fighters. It should also be said that he earned the respect of Larry Holmes, who suggests that Cooney landed two great body shots on him in the 7th round and “The bell went ding.” (Translation: Larry may’ve been saved by the bell.) Lovable guy, however, I think both Klits are too well versed in sound fundamental boxing to suffer a loss to Cooney. Place emphasis on the word, “think.” I’d lose my voice backing Gerry in fights against both of those guys. (Note: One of the things I have to do in life is share a beer with Gerry.)

2.Lennox Lewis had a great jab: I like your call on this one. Lewis did not have a great jab, however he had a very effective arsenal which gave the jab freedom to strike. Very simply, there was a right hand from hell waiting for anyone foolish enough to try and counter off of his jab.

3.Roy Jones cleaned out 3 divisions: I’m calling bullshit on this as well. However, the last fighters I can remember who actually were going for a legitimate title collection were “Tommy Hearns” and Alexis Arguello.” Tommy beat Cuevas and Benitez before he challenged Hagler for a 3rd title. Alexis tried to wrest his 4th title from the best junior welterweight in history (My call), Aaron Pryor. Everyone from Ray Leonard, Roy Jones and damn nearly everyone else has won worthless trinkets they call world titles. I agree with your point on Gracianno Rochigianni. However, Roy does have wins over Toney and Hopkins in the MW division and did appear to be a special fighter there. Also, I’ll never forget that WMD body shot he unleashed on Virgil Hill. His place in the HOF is debatable. However, we’ve got to find a way to get that body shot on Hill in the Hall. (I’m not sure, but I think we dated the same babe once so he’s got my vote based on his impeccable taste in women. )

4.Mike Tyson: Personally, I have no positive comment on this individual. Thugs are best left in the gutter, prison or dead. I don’t get too sophisticated on a fighter who was shorter than most HW’s but fought with his head up in a straight position. That elusive aggression, as it was called, was manufactured (Roberto Duran and Pryor are scientists in that category and probably were ducking punches when they were coming out of their mothers.). Once he was hit, whatever tactical brilliance he had disappeared. What took it’s place was a big heavyweight wearing out Tyson’s cowardly ass.

5.Pernell and Willie were both good punchers:. In Pernell’s case, it was evident throughout his fights that he was never out powered by anyone. We agree 100 percent on this point. I won’t waste time writing about it as you said it best.

6.Marvin Hagler gave up the first 4 rounds to Sugar Ray Leonard: Well BL, as the great communicator once said to “Jimmy Carter”, “There you go again.” Better put, here we go again. I think the denial of Leonard’s victory is best expressed by, HBO commentator “Larry Merchant’s unforgettable comment, “Just because Leonard’s punches are sounding off harder than Hagler’s, doesn’t mean they are harder. What? I could swear my dog’s head tilted in confusion when he heard that. Bang on the table soft and you get a soft sound. Bang harder and you get a harder sound. Your guy (Hagler) had the greatest pain threshold of any middleweight in history. That’s reality’s call. Nobody else could’ve run at Hearns and taken his best in the first round. Nobody. Marvin’s one of the top 2 or 3 MW’s to ever do it. But Boxing Lawyer, Leonard won the first 4 rounds easy and went on to win the fight in a well scored event. The judge who scored it 117 – 111 Leonard just gave all the close rounds to Leonard. What’s the shame in that? When we have the time, we’ll score this fight together and come to some agreement.

7.Hagler can be easily out boxed: Yeah, maybe by Ray Robinson. I also thought Duran did a superb job countering Hagler. Yes, Leonard out boxed him. It’s your call as to what stage Hagler was in his career. Leonard was 80 percent at best that night so I think we can safely say that neither ever faced the best of the other. Honestly, I saw Hagler clean out the MW division before he fought Minter . He beat Briscoe, Seales, Hart, Monroe and what ever other Philly MW that was foolish enough to challenge him. This is why, as champion, he had to fight great welterweights for his biggest paydays. That said, I saw Marvin fight for most of my childhood. In my opinion, that was Marvin in the ring against Leonard. However, Marvin lost that night.

As I said before, it's good to have you back.

SOME GOOD STUFF..I AGREE ON MOST.

dmar5143 wrote:SOME GOOD STUFF..I AGREE ON MOST.

Thanks dmar. I'm going to need you when boxing lawyer comes after me about the Leonard, Hagler stuff.

marvin lost that fight ray did not win it..i picked and bet leonard with a few friends that night..a real dilema since i was rooting for hagler..why did i pick ray..several reasons but the ones that stood out were1.it was a 12 round fight instead of 15..i thought that consession was in rays favor..2.marvin was the champ not ray but marvin and company hem and hawed for a year.he should of dictated negotiations.the fight should of been made 6 months earlier.i felt this gave ray to much time to put things together..although ray had a retirement layoff i felt a year layoff would hurt marvin much more then ray..conceding thumless gloves slightly very slighly favored ray...finaly fight night marvins corner placed a huge second banana to angie dundee.no sence of ergency nor solid advise for marvin to fight southpaw early and attack early..you cant allow a leanord type fighter to put early rounds in the bank..

[quote="dmar5143"]marvin lost that fight ray did not win it..i picked and bet leonard with a few friends that night..a real dilema since i was rooting for hagler..why did i pick ray..several reasons but the ones that stood out were1.it was a 12 round fight instead of 15..i thought that consession was in rays favor..2.marvin was the champ not ray but marvin and company hem and hawed for a year.he should of dictated negotiations.the fight should of been made 6 months earlier.i felt this gave ray to much time to put things together..although ray had a retirement layoff i felt a year layoff would hurt marvin much more then ray..conceding thumless gloves slightly very slighly favored ray...finaly fight night marvins corner placed a huge second banana to angie dundee.no sence of ergency nor solid advise for marvin to fight southpaw early and attack early..you cant allow a leanord type fighter to put early rounds in the bank..[/quote]In my opinion, this is where Hagler lost the fight.

Please stick around BL. It was just as good a read the second time around!

marbleheadmaui wrote:Please stick around BL. It was just as good a read the second time around!

Agreed.

Frank wrote:Boxing Lawyer! Where the hell have you been?! We’re all pretty busy, but were you running for a Senate seat? (smile). Well, if you were, I guess you lost, which is bad for you but good for us. Welcome to the board.

That said, I think this is an excellent thread and miraculously, I agree with most of your points. This is some gutsy stuff, guy. As I said, I agree with “most “ of your points.

1.Gerry Cooney: Cooney was a tragic figure. He had a left hook that was a gift from God, however Victor Valle (Spelling?) was never capable of teaching him even the most basic of boxing fundamentals. This is evident when watching Gerry and Cooney is not hesitant on admitting this. Dennis Rappaport was only interested in promoting the “Great White Hope” controversy. When you have a used car salesman as a manager, you shouldn’t expect much more. Gerry seemed to be too sensitive to fire anyone and ruined what may’ve been a more successful career, however, in the words of your guy Larry Holmes, “Frankly, he don’t take much of a punch.” You can look at the Spinks –Cooney fight to validate that. It should be said that Gerry has a heart of gold and was the only millionaire fighter I know to start a trust fund just for financially troubled, retired fighters. It should also be said that he earned the respect of Larry Holmes, who suggests that Cooney landed two great body shots on him in the 7th round and “The bell went ding.” (Translation: Larry may’ve been saved by the bell.) Lovable guy, however, I think both Klits are too well versed in sound fundamental boxing to suffer a loss to Cooney. Place emphasis on the word, “think.” I’d lose my voice backing Gerry in fights against both of those guys. (Note: One of the things I have to do in life is share a beer with Gerry.)

2.Lennox Lewis had a great jab: I like your call on this one. Lewis did not have a great jab, however he had a very effective arsenal which gave the jab freedom to strike. Very simply, there was a right hand from hell waiting for anyone foolish enough to try and counter off of his jab.

3.Roy Jones cleaned out 3 divisions: I’m calling bullshit on this as well. However, the last fighters I can remember who actually were going for a legitimate title collection were “Tommy Hearns” and Alexis Arguello.” Tommy beat Cuevas and Benitez before he challenged Hagler for a 3rd title. Alexis tried to wrest his 4th title from the best junior welterweight in history (My call), Aaron Pryor. Everyone from Ray Leonard, Roy Jones and damn nearly everyone else has won worthless trinkets they call world titles. I agree with your point on Gracianno Rochigianni. However, Roy does have wins over Toney and Hopkins in the MW division and did appear to be a special fighter there. Also, I’ll never forget that WMD body shot he unleashed on Virgil Hill. His place in the HOF is debatable. However, we’ve got to find a way to get that body shot on Hill in the Hall. (I’m not sure, but I think we dated the same babe once so he’s got my vote based on his impeccable taste in women. )

4.Mike Tyson: Personally, I have no positive comment on this individual. Thugs are best left in the gutter, prison or dead. I don’t get too sophisticated on a fighter who was shorter than most HW’s but fought with his head up in a straight position. That elusive aggression, as it was called, was manufactured (Roberto Duran and Pryor are scientists in that category and probably were ducking punches when they were coming out of their mothers.). Once he was hit, whatever tactical brilliance he had disappeared. What took it’s place was a big heavyweight wearing out Tyson’s cowardly ass.

5.Pernell and Willie were both good punchers:. In Pernell’s case, it was evident throughout his fights that he was never out powered by anyone. We agree 100 percent on this point. I won’t waste time writing about it as you said it best.

6.Marvin Hagler gave up the first 4 rounds to Sugar Ray Leonard: Well BL, as the great communicator once said to “Jimmy Carter”, “There you go again.” Better put, here we go again. I think the denial of Leonard’s victory is best expressed by, HBO commentator “Larry Merchant’s unforgettable comment, “Just because Leonard’s punches are sounding off harder than Hagler’s, doesn’t mean they are harder. What? I could swear my dog’s head tilted in confusion when he heard that. Bang on the table soft and you get a soft sound. Bang harder and you get a harder sound. Your guy (Hagler) had the greatest pain threshold of any middleweight in history. That’s reality’s call. Nobody else could’ve run at Hearns and taken his best in the first round. Nobody. Marvin’s one of the top 2 or 3 MW’s to ever do it. But Boxing Lawyer, Leonard won the first 4 rounds easy and went on to win the fight in a well scored event. The judge who scored it 117 – 111 Leonard just gave all the close rounds to Leonard. What’s the shame in that? When we have the time, we’ll score this fight together and come to some agreement.

7.Hagler can be easily out boxed: Yeah, maybe by Ray Robinson. I also thought Duran did a superb job countering Hagler. Yes, Leonard out boxed him. It’s your call as to what stage Hagler was in his career. Leonard was 80 percent at best that night so I think we can safely say that neither ever faced the best of the other. Honestly, I saw Hagler clean out the MW division before he fought Minter . He beat Briscoe, Seales, Hart, Monroe and what ever other Philly MW that was foolish enough to challenge him. This is why, as champion, he had to fight great welterweights for his biggest paydays. That said, I saw Marvin fight for most of my childhood. In my opinion, that was Marvin in the ring against Leonard. However, Marvin lost that night.

As I said before, it's good to have you back.

I actually understood the bolded part. Sometimes shots SOUND hard and thats it. There is nothing behind them. Ill give you an example that Mr. Leonard himself was a part of. If the second round of Michael Nunn vs Iran Barkley, Nunn cracked Barkley with a right hook that sounded like a CANNON went off!!!! It ECHOED in the arena. The crowd ohhed and ahhhed and Leonard, who was doing the ringside commentary for HBO, said. "thats a slap, just a slap, there is nothing behind that shot. It sounds good, but thats it". Now, I am not saying Leonard was not throwing hard punches, just saying I understood what Merchant was TRYING to say. (Also, Mbulelo Botile was another fighter that often threw shots that sounded like a bazooka when they landed but with no effect. Then later, he lands a "quiet" shot and the guy is out).

Regarding the 117-111 scorecard. It has been my experience that people are pretty resolute in how they scored the Hagler over Leonard fight. By now, they have had 25 years to solidify thier arguments. There is very little that can be said to change their minds. I am sure we fall into that category. However, if you really see no shame in the score of 117-111, WOW!!!!!!!

There is a reason they use this fight to teach judges now. It really brings to light the "subjective" nature of scoring fights.

[quote="some agreement.

7.Hagler can be easily out boxed: Yeah, maybe by Ray Robinson. I also thought Duran did a superb job countering Hagler. Yes, Leonard out boxed him. It’s your call as to what stage Hagler was in his career. Leonard was 80 percent at best that night so I think we can safely say that neither ever faced the best of the other. Honestly, I saw Hagler clean out the MW division before he fought Minter . He beat Briscoe, Seales, Hart, Monroe and what ever other Philly MW that was foolish enough to challenge him. This is why, as champion, he had to fight great welterweights for his biggest paydays. That said, I saw Marvin fight for most of my childhood. In my opinion, that was Marvin in the ring against Leonard. However, Marvin lost that night.

As I said before, it's good to have you back. [/quote]

You opinion is yours, but I would challenge you to do this. Put in a tape of Hagler (you choose the fight) from the early 80's, and then pop in a tape of him vs Roldan, Mugabi, and Leonard. If you cant see the difference I would be amazed. Hagler had so many fights, and not just fights, TOUGH fights against TOUGH guys, it is impossible to imagine it had no effect on him. He was slower. His reflexes were not razor sharp as they once were. His feet moved slower, he found himself out of position more. To his credit. Hagler "morphed" his style as he got older. A fighter who once was very difficult to hit and who avoided punches was suddenly willing to take two to give one. A guy that once moved side to side was suddenly stalking forward. The fighter that once liked to hit and slip was standing in the pocket hitting, taking a shot, and then hitting again. Marvin changed his style as he aged because he had to. Not by choice.
Barry Tompkins said during the Roldan fight Ray turned to him and said "Marvins slipping, I can beat him now". Barry said he thought Ray was joking. Turns out, Ray was just very astute at judging the rate of Haglers decline.

According to my memory, I recall you being a difficult guy to debate so I'll leave it alone. LOL. Great thread by the way. (Note: I recall the act by Leonard. He did notice Marvin was slipping.)

I believe it was Hagler's fight with Mugabi that swayed Leonard to challenge Marvin.Two things stood out to me in that fight that attests to Marvin's slippage.First,Hagler was looping his punches all night;secondly,in the fourth round he walked right into a devastating right uppercut from Mugab.

Mugabi later stated that when Marvin shook that punch off,he knew he had no chance of winning the fight.

[quote="WinstonSmith"]I believe it was Hagler's fight with Mugabi that swayed Leonard to challenge Marvin.Two things stood out to me in that fight that attests to Marvin's slippage.First,Hagler was looping his punches all night;secondly,in the fourth round he walked right into a devastating right uppercut from Mugab.

Mugabi later stated that when Marvin shook that punch off,he knew he had no chance of winning the fight.[/quote] I kind of know how Mugabi felt. When Marvin shook off the early attack of Tommy Hearns, I knew I just lost a lot of money.

boxinglawyer wrote:

Frank wrote:Boxing Lawyer! Where the hell have you been?! We’re all pretty busy, but were you running for a Senate seat? (smile). Well, if you were, I guess you lost, which is bad for you but good for us. Welcome to the board.

That said, I think this is an excellent thread and miraculously, I agree with most of your points. This is some gutsy stuff, guy. As I said, I agree with “most “ of your points.

1.Gerry Cooney: Cooney was a tragic figure. He had a left hook that was a gift from God, however Victor Valle (Spelling?) was never capable of teaching him even the most basic of boxing fundamentals. This is evident when watching Gerry and Cooney is not hesitant on admitting this. Dennis Rappaport was only interested in promoting the “Great White Hope” controversy. When you have a used car salesman as a manager, you shouldn’t expect much more. Gerry seemed to be too sensitive to fire anyone and ruined what may’ve been a more successful career, however, in the words of your guy Larry Holmes, “Frankly, he don’t take much of a punch.” You can look at the Spinks –Cooney fight to validate that. It should be said that Gerry has a heart of gold and was the only millionaire fighter I know to start a trust fund just for financially troubled, retired fighters. It should also be said that he earned the respect of Larry Holmes, who suggests that Cooney landed two great body shots on him in the 7th round and “The bell went ding.” (Translation: Larry may’ve been saved by the bell.) Lovable guy, however, I think both Klits are too well versed in sound fundamental boxing to suffer a loss to Cooney. Place emphasis on the word, “think.” I’d lose my voice backing Gerry in fights against both of those guys. (Note: One of the things I have to do in life is share a beer with Gerry.)

2.Lennox Lewis had a great jab: I like your call on this one. Lewis did not have a great jab, however he had a very effective arsenal which gave the jab freedom to strike. Very simply, there was a right hand from hell waiting for anyone foolish enough to try and counter off of his jab.

3.Roy Jones cleaned out 3 divisions: I’m calling bullshit on this as well. However, the last fighters I can remember who actually were going for a legitimate title collection were “Tommy Hearns” and Alexis Arguello.” Tommy beat Cuevas and Benitez before he challenged Hagler for a 3rd title. Alexis tried to wrest his 4th title from the best junior welterweight in history (My call), Aaron Pryor. Everyone from Ray Leonard, Roy Jones and damn nearly everyone else has won worthless trinkets they call world titles. I agree with your point on Gracianno Rochigianni. However, Roy does have wins over Toney and Hopkins in the MW division and did appear to be a special fighter there. Also, I’ll never forget that WMD body shot he unleashed on Virgil Hill. His place in the HOF is debatable. However, we’ve got to find a way to get that body shot on Hill in the Hall. (I’m not sure, but I think we dated the same babe once so he’s got my vote based on his impeccable taste in women. )

4.Mike Tyson: Personally, I have no positive comment on this individual. Thugs are best left in the gutter, prison or dead. I don’t get too sophisticated on a fighter who was shorter than most HW’s but fought with his head up in a straight position. That elusive aggression, as it was called, was manufactured (Roberto Duran and Pryor are scientists in that category and probably were ducking punches when they were coming out of their mothers.). Once he was hit, whatever tactical brilliance he had disappeared. What took it’s place was a big heavyweight wearing out Tyson’s cowardly ass.

5.Pernell and Willie were both good punchers:. In Pernell’s case, it was evident throughout his fights that he was never out powered by anyone. We agree 100 percent on this point. I won’t waste time writing about it as you said it best.

6.Marvin Hagler gave up the first 4 rounds to Sugar Ray Leonard: Well BL, as the great communicator once said to “Jimmy Carter”, “There you go again.” Better put, here we go again. I think the denial of Leonard’s victory is best expressed by, HBO commentator “Larry Merchant’s unforgettable comment, “Just because Leonard’s punches are sounding off harder than Hagler’s, doesn’t mean they are harder. What? I could swear my dog’s head tilted in confusion when he heard that. Bang on the table soft and you get a soft sound. Bang harder and you get a harder sound. Your guy (Hagler) had the greatest pain threshold of any middleweight in history. That’s reality’s call. Nobody else could’ve run at Hearns and taken his best in the first round. Nobody. Marvin’s one of the top 2 or 3 MW’s to ever do it. But Boxing Lawyer, Leonard won the first 4 rounds easy and went on to win the fight in a well scored event. The judge who scored it 117 – 111 Leonard just gave all the close rounds to Leonard. What’s the shame in that? When we have the time, we’ll score this fight together and come to some agreement.

7.Hagler can be easily out boxed: Yeah, maybe by Ray Robinson. I also thought Duran did a superb job countering Hagler. Yes, Leonard out boxed him. It’s your call as to what stage Hagler was in his career. Leonard was 80 percent at best that night so I think we can safely say that neither ever faced the best of the other. Honestly, I saw Hagler clean out the MW division before he fought Minter . He beat Briscoe, Seales, Hart, Monroe and what ever other Philly MW that was foolish enough to challenge him. This is why, as champion, he had to fight great welterweights for his biggest paydays. That said, I saw Marvin fight for most of my childhood. In my opinion, that was Marvin in the ring against Leonard. However, Marvin lost that night.

As I said before, it's good to have you back.

I actually understood the bolded part. Sometimes shots SOUND hard and thats it. There is nothing behind them. Ill give you an example that Mr. Leonard himself was a part of. If the second round of Michael Nunn vs Iran Barkley, Nunn cracked Barkley with a right hook that sounded like a CANNON went off!!!! It ECHOED in the arena. The crowd ohhed and ahhhed and Leonard, who was doing the ringside commentary for HBO, said. "thats a slap, just a slap, there is nothing behind that shot. It sounds good, but thats it". Now, I am not saying Leonard was not throwing hard punches, just saying I understood what Merchant was TRYING to say. (Also, Mbulelo Botile was another fighter that often threw shots that sounded like a bazooka when they landed but with no effect. Then later, he lands a "quiet" shot and the guy is out).

Regarding the 117-111 scorecard. It has been my experience that people are pretty resolute in how they scored the Hagler over Leonard fight. By now, they have had 25 years to solidify thier arguments. There is very little that can be said to change their minds. I am sure we fall into that category. However, if you really see no shame in the score of 117-111, WOW!!!!!!!

There is a reason they use this fight to teach judges now. It really brings to light the "subjective" nature of scoring fights.

BL, I'm glad they never taught this class while I was in college. Could you imagine having me as a student in this class. I would've practically had to beg you to pass me. LOL:

I will say this. They can teach off of this fight forever, but they're forgetting something. The show business aspect of this fight. Hagler, in decline or not, was thought to be nearly invincible at this stage and hardly anyone expected Leonard to win. I thought Ray was walking to a guillotine on this night. Ray Leonard fans were scared Hagler was going to blind him. It didn’t help our peace of mind to look at “SUGAR Ray Seales” who was legally blind after 2 or 3 wars with Hagler (I’m not certain Hagler caused his condition but we thought he did the night of the fight. )

Most of the crowd was just happy to see Leonard get through these rounds. Throwing combos and hitting Marvin in the first 4 rounds bought us to our feet. I’ll agree that regardless of the scoring of the fight, it was the emotions of the fans that gave Leonard his edge over Hagler in and out of the ring. Leonard played to this advantage brilliantly.

Someone can get an A in this class and that may improve their boxing knowledge. However, my guess is that if they’re ever stuck in a fight that approaches the excitement and emotion of the “Hagler – Leonard” fight, they’ll become a slave to the crowd just as other judges would. My take. (Note: How many times have we watched a hometown fighter benefit from his fans. All of these fights have the same thing in common. First, all of the judges are from out of town, which is supposed to make the fight fair. Secondly, when the decision is announced, we see that these judges may as well have grown up in the town in which they're working the fight. For the most part, the volume of the fans enthusiasm for the local fighter score these fights. That's been my experience.)

[quote="Frank"]

WinstonSmith wrote:I believe it was Hagler's fight with Mugabi that swayed Leonard to challenge Marvin.Two things stood out to me in that fight that attests to Marvin's slippage.First,Hagler was looping his punches all night;secondly,in the fourth round he walked right into a devastating right uppercut from Mugab.

Mugabi later stated that when Marvin shook that punch off,he knew he had no chance of winning the fight.[/quote] I kind of know how Mugabi felt. When Marvin shook off the early attack of Tommy Hearns, I knew I just lost a lot of money.

I made a lot of money that night betting on Hagler.One bet was the stipulation that Marvin had to knock Tommy out for me to win my bet,a Hagler decision would not have done it for me.I saw it live on closed circuit television,and not a person was sitting during that first round.

[quote="WinstonSmith"]

Frank wrote:

WinstonSmith wrote:I believe it was Hagler's fight with Mugabi that swayed Leonard to challenge Marvin.Two things stood out to me in that fight that attests to Marvin's slippage.First,Hagler was looping his punches all night;secondly,in the fourth round he walked right into a devastating right uppercut from Mugab.

Mugabi later stated that when Marvin shook that punch off,he knew he had no chance of winning the fight.[/quote] I kind of know how Mugabi felt. When Marvin shook off the early attack of Tommy Hearns, I knew I just lost a lot of money.

I made a lot of money that night betting on Hagler.One bet was the stipulation that Marvin had to knock Tommy out for me to win my bet,a Hagler decision would not have done it for me.I saw it live on closed circuit television,and not a person was sitting during that first round.

I have to say that, on this night, I wasn't using my head. I should've known that, one way or another, Hagler was going to get to Hearns. As great as Hearns was, he had no ability to take Marvin's punches at any time during his career.

I remember Goody Petronelli before the fight saying how Marvin was going to jump on Tommy early and was going to knock him out.Marvin knew that he was not going to outbox Hearns and turned it into a street fight.Hearns had no other alternative than to engage him.

Marvin was not going to lose that night,and turned years of frustration into his defining moment.As Hagler said afterward,"you would have had to hit me with that ring post to knock me out that night."

WinstonSmith wrote:I remember Goody Petronelli before the fight saying how Marvin was going to jump on Tommy early and was going to knock him out.Marvin knew that he was not going to outbox Hearns and turned it into a street fight.Hearns had no other alternative than to engage him.

Marvin was not going to lose that night,and turned years of frustration into his defining moment.As Hagler said afterward,"you would have had to hit me with that ring post to knock me out that night."

That's pretty much any night with Marvin. LOL