Boxing History:Fighters of the past

ok sooner here goes.you can start a new thread with this fighter and my comments.ill start with a typical fighter of the end of boxings first long golden era.the mid fifties to mid sixties.

Willie Pastrano

Wille was one of my many favorites of that era. He could do everything not well but exceptional. Everything but the big punch. He started out as a welter went to heavyweight as a top contender but truly at 185 or so and without a big punch willie realy didnt belong there. He ended up fighting at ligh heavy beating the great harold johnson for the title..

I picked willie because several on here may not realy know anything about him except hearing his name or reading it in passing. Willies in the hall of fame and deserves to be there in what i call a lower level hall of famer. In his day willie beat maybe 20 legit ranked top ten guys plus 3 hall of fame ligh heavy champs. Archie Moore, Harold Johnson and Joey Maxim.

Wille is what i call a complete fighter outside of the big punch. He could move dance and box. He didnt run like Ali but moved covering ground while holding on to real eastate n the process. Willie is what us old guys called a cutie, a spoiler. His footwork was perfect. Think Floyd, Mosley in there best days only Willies better smarter and just as fast. Intelligent fast. The art of feinting. In one round Willie would toss as many as 30 feints in a round with 4 or 5 different looks. He set traps off thoses feights and trust me if you fell for one you paid. Today he would feint the light heavies out of there jockstrap. A terrific accurate jab. Quick hands and excellent mixture of combos.

He had a half dozewn differnt ways on how to slip a punch. Many times I have seen him dance move switch to southpaw and feint then land a 4 or 5 punch combo then switch back. He could move all night. His ring IQ was exceptional so was his talent. I never considered Willie a great fighter because that era was loaded with complete talent. Very very very good indeed. His 3 fight series with tough Wayne Thorton is a classic. His fight with Harold Johnson is one also for he outwited a genuis. Willies defense was first rate. If he could punch we may be talking one of the top 3 or so light heavies ever.

One word i used back then in describing Willie was not great. Simply beautifull is the word. So those who dont know him take a look. You will like what you see.

Here is a youtube clip of his footwork. From what I have read its second to none.

Damn he was fast. Did you see how he could just turn a fighter without even touching him. Just footwork alone. That is crazy. Usually today a guy will get caught in a corner and he will lean and lay until an opening allows him to move and turn the other fighter. He just threw a small flurry and without even backing the fighter up he was gone. Amazing.

Any suggestions on fights to put up Dmar?

sooner if the harold johnsons fights on there thats perfect.or any of the 3 wayne thorton fights.

i just watched the pastrano-johnson match. the whole fight is on youtube so you can watch it if you want. i scored it 8 rounds to 7 for pastrano. thanks dmar for recommending the fight and for telling us about pastrano. you are correct in saying that many of us have only heard his name in passing and not really looked into him much. the nice thing about this fight is that i havent really seen much on johnson either so i killed two birds with one stone.

pastrano reminds me of willie pep. similar footwork and punching style. the difference between the two is that pep using footwork plus a lot of upper body movement to avoid punches. pastrano seems to mainly use footwork to avoid punches. the thing that impresses me the most is that most light HWs dont have that great of footwork. it seems like now, as the weight class increases, the footwork drops. probably because they are heavier which means they are slower so they dont rely on their feet as much. he looks like a lightweight in a light HW body.

i will comment on johnson too since this is the most ive seen of him. he has effective aggression. what that means is that he doesnt just go in swinging. he uses his jab well to get inside and then flurries to the body and the head. i will compare the difference between him and adamek so that im comparing him with someone who fights today. adamek used to be a light HW. he was a very aggressive fighter. he didnt really jab to get on the inside. he would mostly jump in and start swinging punches hoping that they would land. when he fought dawson, who is a quick boxer, he couldnt get on the inside and couldnt avoid dawsons punches.

im comparing this to show an example. pastrano is obviously way better than dawson and a better all around boxer. johnson could be effective in the fight because he used a stiff jab to make his way on the inside. he didnt just fly in hoping to land something. if he would have, pastrano would have won just about every round because johnson wouldnt have been able to find him. i dont think that most fighters now are really like either of these guys because bigger fighters dont usually have great footwork and most aggressive fighters dont use an effective jab to nullify a boxer.

p.s. on the video of the pastrano-johnson fight, it says that it was a controversial decision. i thought it was a close fight that could have gone either way. there are a few comments and they all had johnson easily winning (although i dont trust youtube comments because they usually have no idea what they are talking about). im just wondering dmar, if you remember this decision being controversial.

PP there was no controversy back then over the results.good observations on your part.johnson actualy wasnt considered a agressive fighter in the move foward mold.unlike marquez for example he could do it effectively if needed.he was known as a great counterpuncher and a defensive genuis back then who could punch box .

Ok boys who is the next fighter on deck. It would be nice to learn about someone before our great night of fights on Saturday.

Soonermark890 wrote:Ok boys who is the next fighter on deck. It would be nice to learn about someone before our great night of fights on Saturday.

how about an argentine or mexican in honor of the ppv main event. Plus the main event of the showtime card has a mexican and a mexican/american.

who is a great mexican or argentine that isnt talked about?

powerpuncher wrote:who is a great mexican or argentine that isnt talked about?

..good point.what i hope to bring to you guys is fighters that are truly unknown to the forum but were dam good fighters in a era loaded with them.there are greats of course that are talked about on this forum but i feel at times folks dont realize how great thoses fighters truly were.canzanerri ross and ambers for example are just a few.i dont think folks realize how fast tony was with his hands or feet or the absolute intelligence in which ross executed a fight nor how tough they are or realize dam how good to great the fighters they actualy fought often.
here goes my thoughts.DULIO LOI..who ill bet some of you asked.with the exception of 2 or 3 fights loi fought in italy.i saw him fight once live against glen flanagan.he and his brother del were fucking tough and fought everyone.weight class made no differnce.loi beat him with ease i remember thinking this guys a good one.i followed his career in the monthly ring magazine results and the guy kept wining.i had a friend from the neighborhood who was about 7 years older then me and was a boxing freak like a few of us.we exhanged letters since he was stationed in italy.he saw loi fight live 3 times and said this guys good.realy good and that the europeans had several world class fighters in the smaller guys that we dont know about.he said loi is one of the most popular fighters in italy ever.well when he came home he brought 3 of lois fights on 16 mm film and all of us watched him fight carlos ortiz twice in which he won and the great french fighter ray famechon which loi won.i said anyone who beats ortiz twice in his prime has to be good.
loi is a lower level hall of famer.he ended his career with a 115-3 record and never was stoped.he beat all the good fighters in europe plus thoses fights i mentioned and at the end of his career split 2 fights with a little pit bull eddie perkins who was at the top of his game...
loi could box well at mid range but he came to fight.he could punch dispite the ko record and was a master of in fighting.a terric body puncher in the mold of chavez sr plus uppercuts inside with both hands.loi could bob and weave under a shot and attack you with angles..like martinez and pac he would hit you in a crouch with punches at angles that you cant see.
he was about 135 pounds with same day weigh inns but looked huge.one of the most muscular powerfull looking back on a fighter.bumps of muscle all over.
i often wonered how good or great could this guy have been if he had a ray arcel a chickie ferrara a whitey bimstein a dundee training him.
on powerpunchers thoughts hes right.all mexicans and aregentina fighters that were great have been talked about.ill give you one good fighter who was italian but born in argentina that fought as a middle in the 50s..edwardo lause.this guy was a beast.he could hit big time and had one of the most powerfull dangerous left hooks ever.again a what if he had the traINERS I MEnTIONED AS WELL AS A CHARLIE GOLDMAN HOW GOOD COULD HE have been.lause like loi was a master body puncher.like a lot of guys from that era they fought.they fought like mills lane said lets get in on..no playing around.they came in to kill you.for about a 4 year period lause was beating everyone.he beat gene fullmer in 1955 deckling him kid gavilon.he won about 35 fights in a row.nobody wanted to fight this guy.he lost interest after he lost a descion to top contender at that point in bobby boyd in a fight he absolutely won.he had guys could punch harder then the golovkin believe me on that and at mid range or close he executed well..

argentina has a history of good fighters who made it out of argentina to fight in the world stage.how many real good ones did not is the question and i suspect there are several..today of course theres maidana matthessee.it started maybe with firpo.over the years the super tough victor galindez light heavy champ fought several great wars.oscar bonnevena i never was high on but gave frazier fits for 2 fights.the great untouchable nicolino locche of course.top fighter in greg peralta and roldan are from there..one great fighter PP i forgot about untill your question was pasqual perez the great flyweight champ of argentina is never mentioned.he was excellent.maybe in the future ill give my possitive thoughts on him..

Ok I found a documentary on duilio loi on youtube and its in Italian. LOL

Soonermark890 wrote:Ok I found a documentary on duilio loi on youtube and its in Italian. LOL

haha. too bad because i would be very interested in watching it.

thanks for your random thoughts dmar. lets just pick one guy and focus on him whoever it may be. then hopefully i can youtube that person and check them out more.

PP check it out anyway.

JOEY GIARDELLO..joey was always a favorite of mine.were both 100 percent italian-americans and joey was like a guy from the old neighborhood.i knew dozens just like him..
joey was about 17 when he started his career.he was a tough street kid from south philly and learned the ropes in the streets.he was a natural.joey had a excellent left jab a terrific left hook one of the best.in the old days it was called the philly left hook.he could punch dispite the ko record box well move side to side with intelligence he had the best right hand counter in the business plus a very good chin and brass balls.he litterly lack nothing but one thing.joey never trained.never is right.at 22 experts were saying giardello is the most complete fighter since robinson.giardellos trainer and manager said joey would go out for a pack of smokes and disappear for weeks.he go out clubing with the boys just days before a fight.he trained on smokes beer and macoroni.today tv gives it a fancy word pasta but we called it macaroni.
joey at around 22 had a chance for his first title shot against bo bo olsen.the fight signed never went down.giardello got involved unknowing i believe in a robbery of a gas station and joey did a number on a guy there and did prison time.
he got out and continued his ways of not traing but fighting the absolute best of that time.it was a time when both the welters and middles had a bottomless pit of talent.4 or 5 guys in there day were on top for 3 years then faded away because of the hectic schudle plus fighting 4 or 5 top guys a year.no problem 5 or 6 guys took there place.giardello was a ranked contender for 15 solid years ever month.number 1 or two or 3 or 5 etc in a era of plenty of talent.at one time i counted 50 tough fights he had against the best.guys like henry hank dick tiger giambra carter langlois peter mueller ernie durando billy grahmm garth panther georgie benton and several more etc etc.all when they were at there best.to quote a boxing historian who wrote on joey he said trust me thoses guys were dam good.if you dont know who they are then you got some serious homework to do.
joey lost a few fights to guys that he should of never lost to because he never trained.ive seen joey fight a good 30 times.he would tie up a guy and look up above the ring to see how much time was left in the round.
he finaly got his first title shot after 107 fights against fullmer in genes back yard.did joey train.hell no.fullmer made the mistake of getting rough with giardello.
..lol joey leaned from the streets .he headbutted fullmer thumbed him use the laces on the gl;oves hit him low.fullmer fucked with the wrong guy.the fight ended as a draw which ment joey won.he fought about 15 more fights and realized times runing out.he started to train and beat good guys and he got his second title shot against dick tiger.joey before hand split 2 fights with tiger but trust me if giardello ever trained tiger would of lost both..joey won the title in his 124th fight.some 16 full years after he started as a pro.
how good was he.dispite the lack of training id rate giardello as one of the top 20 middles ever..iof he trained his whole career id say every top historian has to place him in the top 10or 12for sure.he probably would of lost 6 or 7 fights in his career if he was dedicated at a early age..135 fights later he goes to the hof and deserves to be there.he funtimemtaly did everything par excellance.as tough as they come.hell the whole era was nothing but tough guys.they came to fight.the refs let them fight.joey was a typical guy from that era and then some.

NICOLINA LOCCHE..a hofamer and one who deserves to be there.when folks talk about great defensive fighters rarely if ever do i read the name locche who indeed was one of the best.in fact theres no one like him in style.locche could bend his knees and slip a punch move in fast that step ot two and attack you with hooks to the body and head while contining to slip your punches with upper body movement and bending the knees.what made him unique is that he actualy stood straight up in front of you stuck his chin out and dared you to hit him.he just moved his head only like a woodpecker making a fool out of you dodging a dozen or so punches just standing there.he did it in every fight and against greats like carlos ortiz antonio cervantes terrfic fighters like laguna and eddie perkings.he was a master and loved in argentina..he was stoped only once in 135 fights and by cuts by cervantes in there third fight.he had a great chin and could counter punch as good as anyone in history..he had a decent punch but unbelievable he had only 14 ko wins..the fans loved him.one time i believe he actualy smoked a cigarette between rounds saying to the opponent you cant touch me..he was called in spanish the untouchable.locche was a genuis..he fought exclusively in argentina .went to japan once i believe and did not fight in the usa..i read about him in ring mag for years and saw 2 fights of his via 16 mm film that a friend had.i explored youtube on him when youtube came out to see if what i read and saw in thoses 2 fights were constant.it was.
a locche fight was filled with action as well as his crowd pleasing i cant believe i just saw that defense.he was indeed a great fighter that no onetalks about.
guys do yourself a favor and spend a few hours watching this guy instead of a friday night fight.ill gaurantee he will amaze you and youll love him.again a typical fighter of the end of the golden area that mastered everything in a sound way..a special defensive genuis that had a style of his own.he fought several top fighters in south america also and again they said i cant touch him..the untouchable nickname indeed was well earned.he ended with 117-4..not bad huh.

dmar5143 wrote:NICOLINA LOCCHE..a hofamer and one who deserves to be there.when folks talk about great defensive fighters rarely if ever do i read the name locche who indeed was one of the best.in fact theres no one like him in style.locche could bend his knees and slip a punch move in fast that step ot two and attack you with hooks to the body and head while contining to slip your punches with upper body movement and bending the knees.what made him unique is that he actualy stood straight up in front of you stuck his chin out and dared you to hit him.he just moved his head only like a woodpecker making a fool out of you dodging a dozen or so punches just standing there.he did it in every fight and against greats like carlos ortiz antonio cervantes terrfic fighters like laguna and eddie perkings.he was a master and loved in argentina..he was stoped only once in 135 fights and by cuts by cervantes in there third fight.he had a great chin and could counter punch as good as anyone in history..he had a decent punch but unbelievable he had only 14 ko wins..the fans loved him.one time i believe he actualy smoked a cigarette between rounds saying to the opponent you cant touch me..he was called in spanish the untouchable.locche was a genuis..he fought exclusively in argentina .went to japan once i believe and did not fight in the usa..i read about him in ring mag for years and saw 2 fights of his via 16 mm film that a friend had.i explored youtube on him when youtube came out to see if what i read and saw in thoses 2 fights were constant.it was.
a locche fight was filled with action as well as his crowd pleasing i cant believe i just saw that defense.he was indeed a great fighter that no onetalks about.
guys do yourself a favor and spend a few hours watching this guy instead of a friday night fight.ill gaurantee he will amaze you and youll love him.again a typical fighter of the end of the golden area that mastered everything in a sound way..a special defensive genuis that had a style of his own.he fought several top fighters in south america also and again they said i cant touch him..the untouchable nickname indeed was well earned.he ended with 117-4..not bad huh.

It's all true folks...here's proof.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LEKHMUCh8k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8aerkHG_7A

i have seen videos of him but i dont know a whole lot about him. i didnt know that he never fought in the states. thats probably why he isnt talked about a lot. he may be one of the best fighters ever to never fight in the US. i cant even think of any great fighters that havent fought here at least once.

Dmar was this the guy you where telling me about the other night?

Damn that guy could see the punches coming! LOL

I am not sure I have ever seen a fighter like that in my lifetime. The guy would just duck under every punch or lean away from the punch. Hell the ones he did get hit by where grazing and he rolled it. Absolutely crazy good defense from the films I watched.

ROCKY CASTELANNI.. again im chosing a fighter that was typical of a great era.rocky fought in a era where for 2 decades the middleweight and welters were 20 deep in talent.castelanni was a strong contender for a good solid 6 or 7 years.he was what i consider a second tier middleweight in his era.that is no disgrace for any one of the 20 guys were capable of wining a real championship on any given night.
castelanni like most of that era fundimenmtly was extremly sound.tech wise far above the average fighter of today.he litterly had no flaws that were major.he didnt have a big ko record but could hit with respectibilty.you dont have a big ko record because of the guys he fought and he fought them all when they were at there best.
rocky had a excellent left hand both in the jab and hook department.he worked the body well.he could move and had legs but didnt run.he would circle you in a arch while trying to control real estate in the center of the ring.he had a excellent right hand lead and a good right hand counter.
rocky was a fantastic counter puncher but unlike our thgoughts of a harold johnson a floyd a marquez rocky was a agressive counter puncher countering your counter.
he fought the best of the best when they were at there best.his resume for example exceeds both pac and floyd combined in that department.he fought top guys at there peak..hall of famers like robinson giardello olsen fullmer and billy graham for example.guys like johnny braton twice harold green twice joey giambra twice tiger jones twice langlois twice earnie durando 3 times plus gil turner cartier fusari janiro rory calhoun bobby boyd ugene harriston holly mims.whew.
he wasnt great just a typical solid very good fighter in a special era.
today we talk about pirog lee macklyn etc etc guys who if fought in that era would of had there ass handed to them by a good 20 fighters..castelanni in reality represents the blue collar hungry fighter of that era.a solid complete fighter who fought the whos who in his era.

SALVADOR SANCHEZ....talk about great fighters rarely talked about sanchez is one.talk about action fighters sanchez is one.he fought in a era when the feathers were not only deep but loaded with terrific fighters.his wars with gomez little red lopez azuma nelsom laporte and others showed a fighter with heart determination and greatness.the gomez fight i feel established his greatness and was the first time i heared about the PR-MEXICAN rivalry..sanchez died at his peak at age 23..i feel he had a good 5 years left in that peak and he fought the best and would of continued to do as.he may of lost but also would of regained the title perhaps a few times.that era was that good.
he had what ive only seen in a few fighters.that look.his face showed deep consintration confidence and grit and strong determintion..he indeed was a warrior not just a mexican warrior..he had a good jab.excellent balance and could move when needed with a smooth effort.he had a strong chin that was tested constantly.he was a awsome puncher with both hands and fundimentaly was a sound fighter with perhaps two flaws..his defense was fair only and his handspeed for a feather was subpar outside of thoses 2 things he was awsome and truly great.
he came in the ring everytime with hunger.he fought to win to break down your will.what a fantastic era he was in..i feel sanchez merits consideration as one of the 10 best feathers ever.he was that good.do yourself a favor.when you long for a terrific fight and theres a lull in boxing check his fights out on youtube.you will be glad you did.

ive seen quite a bit of sanchez and he has some great fights as you said dmar. he is one of the biggest what ifs in boxing history. he already solidified his HOF status at 23 and wasnt even in his prime yet. i dont think that he was a top 10 ever talent but i think that he could have definitely reached top 25, if not higher.

BOBO OLSEN..olsen i feel is one fighter whos dismissed and not talked about maybe because of his famous defeats and not his several several great wins.ive seen olsen fight several times and ill say no one in boxing history that i know off got knocked out prettier then olsen.no one including tommy hearns.
olsen was indeed a terrific fighter over the years that fought many a dangerous foe.he was active over several years and fought for small or large purses it didnt matter.he was a fighter.a typical warrior of that era that is overlooked.olsen came to fight.he was agressive and fundimentaly very sound.he could slip punches by bobing and weaving then counter with brillence.he hit with both hands and attacked the body and head with excellent combinations.he was a smart fighter who set traps but its overlooked because of his style.
olsen was a middle champ and a good one.he fought the best and ducked no one.in his later years past his best he still managed to beat top lighheavies as a ranked light heavy himself.he beat wayne thorton twice when wayne was at his peak and joey maxim twice.he beat 3 or 4 lower end top ten guys that poped in the rankings for six months or so.
olsen had guts and skill thats overlooked.his resume exceeds several fighters that are talked about a lot.guys like bo hop or jones jr maybe even the great hagler who indeed had a resume.he beat randy turpin lloyd marshall yarosz cartier tiger jones langlois garth panther twice castellani gavilin villeman and eugene harriston as well as the light heavies mentioned.
olsen was fan friendly and had a blue collar work ethic.he was accurate with his punches.
i remember as a youngster getting excited for a fight that i felt would be a war.castelanni vs olsen.it was a gruling 15 round fight which both hit the deck once.both had to be in shape for indeed the fight was gruling but frustrating to me for it wasnt a typical olsen fight..they had to of clinched 300 times in that fight pushing each other and leaning on each other.a war of condition.
olsen could box a bit but was always agressive.he was dam good .its a shame hes remembered for his ko losses of beauty then what he accomplished overall.he was indeed a fighter no doubt.