HomeTeam Molina To Appeal DQ Defeat To Kirkland
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Team Molina To Appeal DQ Defeat To Kirkland
GrantZilla Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:01 pm
Junior middleweight contender Carlos Molina (19-5-2, 6KOs) is planning to appeal his controversial ten round disqualification loss to James Kirkland (31-1, 27KOs), says promoter Leon Margules to BoxingScene.com. On Saturday night at the Reliant Arena in Houston, Texas - Molina was ahead on two of the three offical scorecards, with tallies of 88-83 and 87-84, when he was knocked down at the end of the tenth round.
Molina went down as the bell rang. He quickly got up as the referee was giving him a standing eight count. Around the count of six, it appeared that one of Molina's cornermen stepped in for a second and the referee advised him that it wasn't time to enter the ring and he hopped back out.
Here is where it gets messy.
Referee Jon Schorle, after telling Molina's cornerman to get out, returns back to Molina to continue his count. Not only does he continue his count, he even asks Molina "are you okay" - which every referee asks a fighter in order to determine if the boxer in question is capable of continuing.
After Molina indicated to Schorle that he was okay and capable of fighting on, Schorle then ordered both fighters to get back to their respective corners. Then Schorle speaks to a few people at ringside and decides to disqualify Molina for his cornerman entering the ring.
"We are absolutely going to file an appeal once we conduct a thorough investigation. You can’t really react at ringside without looking at videotape. But there were a lot of things wrong, or appeared to be wrong. And they will probably get confirmed by tape. But at the end of the day, a decision like that hurts boxing. The fighters were robbed of their ability to finish what was turning into a very interesting fight," Margules told BoxingScene.com.
"Why would you stop the fight? In basketball it’s called ‘no harm, no foul.’ What was the purpose of disqualifying him? The bell rang and the corner reacted. There [was someone from the commission posted in the Molina's corner and] he didn’t do anything [to prevent Moninal’s cornerman from entering]. He heard the bell too. What does a corner do? When they hear the ten second [signal], they get near the edge of the ropes and when the bell rings they run up and take their change and that’s what they did."
"Molina was on his feet when all of this happened anyway. [Molina's cornerman] got in and got out. The referee ordered the fighters to their corners, and then he talked to everybody at ringside. Golden Boy was screaming to disqualify him and they disqualified him. If a guy gets knocked down before the end of the round, the bell is not supposed to ring until the count is over, because the corner is going to react until the end of the bell."
One infamous incident, back in 2006, saw trainer Roger Mayweather enter the ring during the tenth round of a welterweight fight between Floyd Mayweather Jr. and Zab Judah. Roger started a brawl with Judah's corner. Once order was restored, Floyd was not disqualified and the fight continued.
"Roger Mayweather jumped in the ring and started a fight and they didn’t disqualify [Floyd]. He started a fight with the other corner and they didn't disqualify [Floyd]," Margules said.
http://tinyurl.com/7w8qo36
Molina went down as the bell rang. He quickly got up as the referee was giving him a standing eight count. Around the count of six, it appeared that one of Molina's cornermen stepped in for a second and the referee advised him that it wasn't time to enter the ring and he hopped back out.
Here is where it gets messy.
Referee Jon Schorle, after telling Molina's cornerman to get out, returns back to Molina to continue his count. Not only does he continue his count, he even asks Molina "are you okay" - which every referee asks a fighter in order to determine if the boxer in question is capable of continuing.
After Molina indicated to Schorle that he was okay and capable of fighting on, Schorle then ordered both fighters to get back to their respective corners. Then Schorle speaks to a few people at ringside and decides to disqualify Molina for his cornerman entering the ring.
"We are absolutely going to file an appeal once we conduct a thorough investigation. You can’t really react at ringside without looking at videotape. But there were a lot of things wrong, or appeared to be wrong. And they will probably get confirmed by tape. But at the end of the day, a decision like that hurts boxing. The fighters were robbed of their ability to finish what was turning into a very interesting fight," Margules told BoxingScene.com.
"Why would you stop the fight? In basketball it’s called ‘no harm, no foul.’ What was the purpose of disqualifying him? The bell rang and the corner reacted. There [was someone from the commission posted in the Molina's corner and] he didn’t do anything [to prevent Moninal’s cornerman from entering]. He heard the bell too. What does a corner do? When they hear the ten second [signal], they get near the edge of the ropes and when the bell rings they run up and take their change and that’s what they did."
"Molina was on his feet when all of this happened anyway. [Molina's cornerman] got in and got out. The referee ordered the fighters to their corners, and then he talked to everybody at ringside. Golden Boy was screaming to disqualify him and they disqualified him. If a guy gets knocked down before the end of the round, the bell is not supposed to ring until the count is over, because the corner is going to react until the end of the bell."
One infamous incident, back in 2006, saw trainer Roger Mayweather enter the ring during the tenth round of a welterweight fight between Floyd Mayweather Jr. and Zab Judah. Roger started a brawl with Judah's corner. Once order was restored, Floyd was not disqualified and the fight continued.
"Roger Mayweather jumped in the ring and started a fight and they didn’t disqualify [Floyd]. He started a fight with the other corner and they didn't disqualify [Floyd]," Margules said.
http://tinyurl.com/7w8qo36
GrantZilla- Posts : 9310
Join date : 2010-11-05
Re: Team Molina To Appeal DQ Defeat To Kirkland
Guest Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:11 pm
The ref completely overreacted and ruined a potential exciting finale to the fight.
As for pinning the blame on Golden Boy they had options on Molina.
As for pinning the blame on Golden Boy they had options on Molina.
Guest- Guest
Re: Team Molina To Appeal DQ Defeat To Kirkland
GrantZilla Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:18 pm
Hagler's Bald Head wrote:The ref completely overreacted and ruined a potential exciting finale to the fight.
As for pinning the blame on Golden Boy they had options on Molina.
Go wach what happened over. The ref goes and talks with officials and you can hear him go "Are you kidding me" and then he DQ's Molina. It wasn't the ref that made the call but corrupt fucking Texas Commission, who are in GB's pocket.
Why they had GB paid off judge Gale Van Hoy judging. What a shocker he had Kirkland winning.
GrantZilla- Posts : 9310
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Re: Team Molina To Appeal DQ Defeat To Kirkland
captainanddew Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:55 pm
why did the timekeeper ring the bell during the count.
Isn't the timekeeper supposed to wait until after the count is complete?
Isn't the timekeeper supposed to wait until after the count is complete?
captainanddew- Posts : 8143
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Re: Team Molina To Appeal DQ Defeat To Kirkland
dmar5143 Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:13 pm
..thats what i read about ringing the bell after the counts over.look he got DQ unfairly.his corner reacted to the bell and got in after there fighter got up i think.captainanddew wrote:why did the timekeeper ring the bell during the count.
Isn't the timekeeper supposed to wait until after the count is complete?
i think its a stupid rule.why do they announce you cant be saved by the bell including the last round if the bell doesnt ring first and let then the count continue untill the guy gets up.thats the way it should be.dumb stupid rule.
dmar5143- Posts : 2248
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Re: Team Molina To Appeal DQ Defeat To Kirkland
captainanddew Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:17 pm
dmar5143 wrote:..thats what i read about ringing the bell after the counts over.look he got DQ unfairly.his corner reacted to the bell and got in after there fighter got up i think.captainanddew wrote:why did the timekeeper ring the bell during the count.
Isn't the timekeeper supposed to wait until after the count is complete?
i think its a stupid rule.why do they announce you cant be saved by the bell including the last round if the bell doesnt ring first and let then the count continue untill the guy gets up.thats the way it should be.dumb stupid rule.
bell had rung during count and Molina was safely up.
captainanddew- Posts : 8143
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Re: Team Molina To Appeal DQ Defeat To Kirkland
GrantZilla Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:09 am
It was nowhere near the first controversy to come from a boxing match in Texas. And it is far from the last that will come, at this rate.
Disqualifying Carlos Molina — and designating James Kirkland the winner — was just another injustice in a long line of them. This year is not even a fourth of the way through, and already it has been the year of the Texas travesty.
This is a state that failed to drug test Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. before his February fight with Marco Antonio Rubio.
This is the state that in the same month allowed Shawn Estrada to fight after weighing in 17 pounds over the light heavyweight limit.
This is not the only athletic commission with highly questionable judges’ decisions, but it is a state where they happen noticeably often.
This year alone, Tavoris Cloud won a split decision over Gabriel Campillo in a fight most thought Campillo won; Nonito Donaire had to settle for a split decision against Wilfredo Vazquez Jr. in a fight everyone saw Donaire clearly winning; and one judge amazingly had Kirkland ahead of Molina at the time of the disqualification Saturday, which would be a stunning statement if not for whose scorecard that was.
It was Gale Van Hoy, the same judge who saw Paulie Malignaggi winning only two rounds against Juan Diaz in their first fight in 2009. And judges are not the only questionable officials in Texas.
This is the same state in which referee Laurence Cole — the son of the head of the athletic commission — once seemed to surreptitiously suggest to Juan Manuel Marquez that he could quit from an accidental head butt while ahead on the scorecards against Jimrex Jaca in 2006. Cole covered the broadcast microphone in his shirt in an attempt not to be heard.
The athletic commission officials can be questionable. The judging can be questionable. The refereeing can be questionable.
This is a recipe for failure.
True to form, Texas failed again.
Molina-Kirkland didn’t need to end in disqualification. That it did, however, was the result of a rush to judgment.
Before there was controversy, there was confusion.
Here, then, are the facts of what happened:
- Kirkland scored a knockdown on Molina at the end of the 10th round. The bell rang as Molina was falling to the canvas. Molina got up by the count of four.
- The referee, Jon Schorle, stopped his count at five when he saw a member of Molina’s corner get into the ring. “You fucking kidding me?” Schorle said, pushing the man out of the ring and then continuing his count for the remainder of the mandatory eight. He then directed Kirkland and Molina to their respective corners.
- Schorle then knelt down by the athletic commission members and spoke to them about Molina’s corner entering the ring during his count. He stood up and waved off the bout, disqualifying Molina in a fight that he had been winning up until the knockdown.
The justification for the disqualification was that, because of the knockdown, the round continued past the end of the three-minute period. Schorle disqualified Molina because a member of his corner got into the ring while the round was still going.
The ringing of the bell, signifying the end of the round, confused everyone involved.
Kirkland-Molina was contested under the unified rules of the Association of Boxing Commissions. Had Molina been ruled to have gone down after the bell from a punch that came during the round, the round would have been considered over. The one-minute rest period would have begun.
Molina went down at the bell, however. Schorle followed the ABC rules, disregarding the bell and counting to eight.
The timekeeper is not supposed to ring the bell during a referee’s count, but should wait until after the referee has counted and evaluated the fighter. That rule does not apply in this situation, though, because Molina was on his way down as the round ended. The bell rang when it was supposed to have.
The sequence of events that ended the bout happened quickly. The decision, though, didn’t need to be made in a hurry.
The athletic commission made a rush to judgment before all of the evidence was in. Mistakes have been made elsewhere — but in other states they are the exception. In this state, they seem to be the rule.
This athletic commission has put its brand on yet another travesty. Once again, Texas justice has proven anything but just.
http://tinyurl.com/87kq7v7
Disqualifying Carlos Molina — and designating James Kirkland the winner — was just another injustice in a long line of them. This year is not even a fourth of the way through, and already it has been the year of the Texas travesty.
This is a state that failed to drug test Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. before his February fight with Marco Antonio Rubio.
This is the state that in the same month allowed Shawn Estrada to fight after weighing in 17 pounds over the light heavyweight limit.
This is not the only athletic commission with highly questionable judges’ decisions, but it is a state where they happen noticeably often.
This year alone, Tavoris Cloud won a split decision over Gabriel Campillo in a fight most thought Campillo won; Nonito Donaire had to settle for a split decision against Wilfredo Vazquez Jr. in a fight everyone saw Donaire clearly winning; and one judge amazingly had Kirkland ahead of Molina at the time of the disqualification Saturday, which would be a stunning statement if not for whose scorecard that was.
It was Gale Van Hoy, the same judge who saw Paulie Malignaggi winning only two rounds against Juan Diaz in their first fight in 2009. And judges are not the only questionable officials in Texas.
This is the same state in which referee Laurence Cole — the son of the head of the athletic commission — once seemed to surreptitiously suggest to Juan Manuel Marquez that he could quit from an accidental head butt while ahead on the scorecards against Jimrex Jaca in 2006. Cole covered the broadcast microphone in his shirt in an attempt not to be heard.
The athletic commission officials can be questionable. The judging can be questionable. The refereeing can be questionable.
This is a recipe for failure.
True to form, Texas failed again.
Molina-Kirkland didn’t need to end in disqualification. That it did, however, was the result of a rush to judgment.
Before there was controversy, there was confusion.
Here, then, are the facts of what happened:
- Kirkland scored a knockdown on Molina at the end of the 10th round. The bell rang as Molina was falling to the canvas. Molina got up by the count of four.
- The referee, Jon Schorle, stopped his count at five when he saw a member of Molina’s corner get into the ring. “You fucking kidding me?” Schorle said, pushing the man out of the ring and then continuing his count for the remainder of the mandatory eight. He then directed Kirkland and Molina to their respective corners.
- Schorle then knelt down by the athletic commission members and spoke to them about Molina’s corner entering the ring during his count. He stood up and waved off the bout, disqualifying Molina in a fight that he had been winning up until the knockdown.
The justification for the disqualification was that, because of the knockdown, the round continued past the end of the three-minute period. Schorle disqualified Molina because a member of his corner got into the ring while the round was still going.
The ringing of the bell, signifying the end of the round, confused everyone involved.
Kirkland-Molina was contested under the unified rules of the Association of Boxing Commissions. Had Molina been ruled to have gone down after the bell from a punch that came during the round, the round would have been considered over. The one-minute rest period would have begun.
Molina went down at the bell, however. Schorle followed the ABC rules, disregarding the bell and counting to eight.
The timekeeper is not supposed to ring the bell during a referee’s count, but should wait until after the referee has counted and evaluated the fighter. That rule does not apply in this situation, though, because Molina was on his way down as the round ended. The bell rang when it was supposed to have.
The sequence of events that ended the bout happened quickly. The decision, though, didn’t need to be made in a hurry.
The athletic commission made a rush to judgment before all of the evidence was in. Mistakes have been made elsewhere — but in other states they are the exception. In this state, they seem to be the rule.
This athletic commission has put its brand on yet another travesty. Once again, Texas justice has proven anything but just.
http://tinyurl.com/87kq7v7
GrantZilla- Posts : 9310
Join date : 2010-11-05
Re: Team Molina To Appeal DQ Defeat To Kirkland
dmar5143 Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:27 am
grant good find.a article that explains the event clearly.the timekeeper is cleared based on this article and sound reasoning.the texas commision has a bad rep and has earned it as this article points out.
i feel the rule is total nonsence.let the bell ring when its supposed to and continue the count untill the fighter gets up.either that or stop saying in the pre fight rules a fighter cant be saved by the bell in any round including the last.what bell.what bell acording to the stupid rules.
again the examples of fights during the year has established a pattern.a pattern of increased incompetense by both refs and the judges.now its starting with commisions.
look a judge can at times miss a few things but the blantant one sided incorrect scoring is another thing thats inexcuseable.
i feel the rule is total nonsence.let the bell ring when its supposed to and continue the count untill the fighter gets up.either that or stop saying in the pre fight rules a fighter cant be saved by the bell in any round including the last.what bell.what bell acording to the stupid rules.
again the examples of fights during the year has established a pattern.a pattern of increased incompetense by both refs and the judges.now its starting with commisions.
look a judge can at times miss a few things but the blantant one sided incorrect scoring is another thing thats inexcuseable.
dmar5143- Posts : 2248
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Re: Team Molina To Appeal DQ Defeat To Kirkland
powerpuncher Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:10 am
just like the article stated that grant posted, molina went down after the bell already rang so the bell sounded at the right time. the ref just called it a KD even though it shouldnt have been because he fell after the round ended. so the round was officially over and the cornermen should have been allowed to enter the ring. they did nothing wrong. if the ref thought that molina went down before the bell then thats fine but then that means that there was differing of opinions which causes confusion. confusion like that shouldnt end in a DQ. especially since the corner was in the right.
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Re: Team Molina To Appeal DQ Defeat To Kirkland
Shaun Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:22 pm
GrantZilla wrote:Hagler's Bald Head wrote:The ref completely overreacted and ruined a potential exciting finale to the fight.
As for pinning the blame on Golden Boy they had options on Molina.
Go wach what happened over. The ref goes and talks with officials and you can hear him go "Are you kidding me" and then he DQ's Molina. It wasn't the ref that made the call but corrupt fucking Texas Commission, who are in GB's pocket.
Why they had GB paid off judge Gale Van Hoy judging. What a shocker he had Kirkland winning.
I'm going to have to disagree with you Grant. The ref also said "are you fuckin kidding me" right as Molina's cornerman jumped into the ring during the count. The ref felt it was necessary to technically disqualify Molina for this rule violation.
However, having Gale Van Hoy as a judge should make people raise an eyebrow. It would seem that boxers would ensure that some judges are not allowed to participate in an event. Seems like this would be covered in contracts.
Shaun- Posts : 750
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GrantZilla- Posts : 9310
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