Has Mike Tyson become the most underrated HW ever?

Soonermark890 wrote:

kbyte wrote:

Soonermark890 wrote:

kbyte wrote:Well hes the only man to knock out Larry Holmes, he destroyed undefeated Michael Spinks in under two minutes, cleaned out the division and became undisputed champion. Not a bad career.

Holmes was old and coming off back to back losses and Spinks wasnt a real HW. The division was not good when Tyson came through. On top of that he lost to Buster Douglas 3 fights after he became the champ.

How is the guy in the HOF? He beats Spinks and then 3 fights later is the Dougles fight. He never beat another great HW in their prime.

He wasn't a real heavyweight but he beat Larry Holmes. He was undefeated when Tyson fought him and he destroyed him in 91 seconds. How is that not a great win?

So would you consider Wladimir beating B-Hop a great victory? A HW Knocked out a LHW in the first round and thats a great victory?

You can't make that comparison because Hopkins hasn't beaten anyone or proven himself at heavyweight. Spinks moved up and became the heavyweight champion. Great win for Tyson.

Soonermark890 wrote:

freakzilla wrote:Hopkins isn't a true LHW though. He started way lower than that.

OK then how about Cloud? Wlad vs Cloud. Come on guys look past all the hype and Tyson didnt do much in his career.

He became undisputed heavyweight champion. Thats something.

Gumby wrote:

Soonermark890 wrote:So when did Tyson become the real HW champ?

When he beat Tony Tucker and became the undisputed champ.

Tyson became the real champ when he beat Spinks. Spinks was the lineal champ going into that fight.

Canvas wrote:

Gumby wrote:

Soonermark890 wrote:So when did Tyson become the real HW champ?

When he beat Tony Tucker and became the undisputed champ.

Tyson became the real champ when he beat Spinks. Spinks was the lineal champ going into that fight.

Thank you. Its not when he beat Tucker or Berbick its when he beat Spinks. That means his reign as the true champ was
Spinks (when he became champ)
Bruno
Williams
So those three fights makes him a dominant champion?

Gumby wrote:

Soonermark890 wrote:
I wonder who hit harder Butterbean or Tyson. I always wanted to see that fight.

LOL

Honestly, I've argued that Mike Tyson was overrated ever since I began to post on boxng boards. I'm pretty tired of stating facts that qualify Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis (Not Mike Tyson) as the dominant Heavyweights of the 90s and the 21st century. Tysons' greatest win was over a blow up light Heavyweight. He never fought Riddick Bowe and refused to fight George Foreman. At one point, Lennox Lewis was paid 6 million not to fight Tyson. He fought Holyfield, who had a much more impressive list of opponents than Tyson, and was beaten within an inch of his life. All Time Great HW?? In his era, Holyfield, Lewis, Bowe and arguably George Foreman should be ranked ahead of him. Nevertheless, because of all his press, it was impossible to keep him out of the HOF.

And yes, he was prepared for Buster Douglass. He just got the living shit beat out of him by a boxer who applied simple fundamentals to a shorter opponent who came in standing straight up. The only difference between Douglass and most of Tyson's opponents? Douglass wasn't intimidated.

Soonermark890 wrote:[Thank you. Its not when he beat Tucker or Berbick its when he beat Spinks. That means his reign as the true champ was
Spinks (when he became champ)
Bruno
Williams
So those three fights makes him a dominant champion?

Come on now. He beat everybody in front of him at that point in his career, unfied the titles, and beat the linear Champ. Jack Dempsey didn't exactly have a stellar career as Champ. Because he beat everybody up on his way to becoming Champ. Same with Liston.

And his win over Holmes always get's downgraded. It's pure bullshit, spewed by Holmes himself, that he took the fight on a few week notice. Shit, Holmes probably say he took the fight on an hour notice. Fact is, Holmes was already training for another fight when got offered to fight Tyson. So not like was just sitting on his ass.

Become a trend now to write Tyson off. The truth is always in the middle. He isn't as great as uninformed casual fans make him out to be, but neither as bad as a lot of boxing snobs like to write him off as.

I'd take another Tyson in a heartbeat today over what we got now. Fuck, I wish we had another Tyson right now.

GrantZilla wrote:

Soonermark890 wrote:[Thank you. Its not when he beat Tucker or Berbick its when he beat Spinks. That means his reign as the true champ was
Spinks (when he became champ)
Bruno
Williams
So those three fights makes him a dominant champion?

Come on now. He beat everybody in front of him at that point in his career, unfied the titles, and beat the linear Champ. Jack Dempsey didn't exactly have a stellar career as Champ. Because he beat everybody up on his way to becoming Champ. Same with Liston.

And his win over Holmes always get's downgraded. It's pure bullshit, spewed by Holmes himself, that he took the fight on a few week notice. Shit, Holmes probably say he took the fight on an hour notice. Fact is, Holmes was already training for another fight when got offered to fight Tyson. So not like was just sitting on his ass.

Become a trend now to write Tyson off. The truth is always in the middle. He isn't as great as uninformed casual fans make him out to be, but neither as bad as a lot of boxing snobs like to write him off as.

I'd take another Tyson in a heartbeat today over what we got now. Fuck, I wish we had another Tyson right now.

Me too.

But at the same time the Holmes win really isnt that great to beat a guy who just lost two fights in a row.

I think my only real boxing conversation here was about the underrated prime of Mike Tyson and how he was much more then a crazy fucker with mad power.

Deeznutz wrote:I think my only real boxing conversation here was about the underrated prime of Mike Tyson and how he was much more then a crazy fucker with mad power.

I think Tyson will be remembered as the fighter that had so much and did so little.

So let's say Tyson had Manny's heart and commitment. Where would he have ended up with the skills he had?

freakzilla wrote:So let's say Tyson had Manny's heart and commitment. Where would he have ended up with the skills he had?

How about,how would Mike have ended up if Cuss didn't die? A true student of the game when he was younger. Young Mike under Cuss was very educated on the sweet science.

Deeznutz wrote:

freakzilla wrote:So let's say Tyson had Manny's heart and commitment. Where would he have ended up with the skills he had?

How about,how would Mike have ended up if Cuss didn't die? A true student of the game when he was younger. Young Mike under Cuss was very educated on the sweet science.

I usually always bring up that exact point.

freakzilla wrote:

Deeznutz wrote:

freakzilla wrote:So let's say Tyson had Manny's heart and commitment. Where would he have ended up with the skills he had?

How about,how would Mike have ended up if Cuss didn't die? A true student of the game when he was younger. Young Mike under Cuss was very educated on the sweet science.

I usually always bring up that exact point.

He would have beat LL but lost to Holy and Bowe. But he didnt.

Soonermark890 wrote:

freakzilla wrote:

Deeznutz wrote:

freakzilla wrote:So let's say Tyson had Manny's heart and commitment. Where would he have ended up with the skills he had?

How about,how would Mike have ended up if Cuss didn't die? A true student of the game when he was younger. Young Mike under Cuss was very educated on the sweet science.

I usually always bring up that exact point.

He would have beat LL but lost to Holy and Bowe. But he didnt.

I'm not so sure about that. I can be pretty certian he doesn't lose to Buster. I think if Cuss was around to control Tyson he would have had a better game plan for Holy and he certainly had the tools to beat him.

who did he beat?

qdagoverner wrote:who did he beat?

What HOFers and ATG have The Klits beaten?

Tyson beat two HOFers, and fought against many HOF opponents.

he did beat two hall of fame opponents, he did. a cruiserweight who got two gift decisions against holmes and a over the hill larry holmes who had 2 months to train for a fight after being gone for years...who were the hof opponents? either you are or your not..if people dont consider the klits greats than why mike?

I'm torn as to Tyson's legacy. He did beat an old Holmes and Spinks had moved all the way from 175.
He didn't face or beat(depending on the fighter) the best fighters of the 90s in Bowe, Lewis, or Holyfield.

The other side of my brain tells me Tyson was a freakish puncher who flamed out mentally so early in his career. Even before he lost to Buster, his crazy ass mind was already unraveling, he was strangled by Don King's leadership, and he had gotten rid of all things that helped him get to the top (trainer/manager/etc...).

Gov, there is some truth to what you say. At the end of the day, he was a major waste of talent.

I think to paint his resume in a negative light requires some 20-20 hindsight in regard to his opponents. The image of a petrified Michael Spinks in a huge knee brace and him getting filleted like a fish, an ill-prepared Holmes flailing away and getting clunked upside his head, etc.

Fact is Michael Spinks was the real champ. He wasn't much smaller than Tyson in reality and Tyson went through him like he was nothing. I think the Holmes fight was revealing. The man who went on to beat Ray Mercer and go 12 good rounds with Holyfield was no match for this version of Tyson (86-89).

Add to that his wins over the 80's guys, like Berbick, Smith, Thomas, Bruno, Tucker, etc. Are these guys with issues? Sure. But doesn't the fact that Iron Mike went through them like they were nothing speak to some kind of greatness? I don't know.

Throw in a couple wins over a very good and dangerous contender in Razor Ruddock, and the other ranked guys he beat in his comeback and it's not a bad body of work.

Tyson suffers historically and unfairly so in some respects. The losses to Holyfield and Lewis happened outside of his prime. There are many other fighters like Tyson in the IBHOF with 3-4 year primes who weren't very productive outside of that period and no one seems to have any problem calling them great.

It almost pains me to say this as I have Holmes, Lewis, And Holy all ahead of Tyson historically, but Tyson from 86-89 was the most formidable heavyweight fighting force I ever saw in my lifetime.

Good points Scott.

You can rip into any fighter's resume and spin it in a negative way.

Ali fought Liston when he was past his prime. Patterson was shot. He struggled against a Cruiser in Frazier, never beat Norton and got gift decisions, ect, ect.

Tyson brought mainstream interest to boxing. In his prime, Tyson was bigger than Jordon was. He was the first athlete to have a video game after him. His fights were EVENTS.

HBO nor Showtime have ever gotten close to the ratings they got when Tyson fought.

You have to factor that shit in as well when reviewing Tyson.

I've read this post and I there are some brilliant points made in relation to Mike Tyson. I've always wondered why some of the most intelligent people I know, including my father, come to Tyson's aid in his time of trouble. In other words, when the career is looked at, it's not quite as impressive as it was supposed to be. In my opinion, Tyson's career has fooled a lot of people into believing he's better than he is. I think there are some basic reasons why.

1. The Greatest Bully in Boxing History: ... is Mike Tyson. Bully Definition: Somebody who loves to dominate weaker people. When this personality is matched with an opponent who shows no fear, it panics and throws in the towel. There are other bullies that have been efffective such as "Sonny Liston" and recently even "Jeff Lacy" however none were as explosive as Mike Tyson. Tyson was the most talented of this type of persona. This doesn't include men like Dempsey, Foreman, Louis, Frazier or Marciano, who were scrappers for the most part. A bully cannot compete in a competitive fight with an opponent who is close to his ability and shows no fear.

2. Greatest Highlight film in History of boxing: ... and maybe even sports. Tyson knocking men across the ring is an unbelievable sight. It blocks out all the fights when he was hit and even in victory, became a one dimensional puncher looking for a way out. Take out the Razor Ruddock and Tony Tucker fights, and we're left with the reality that he doesn't have the stomach for a competitive fight.

3. Great ability: Skill, brains and guts. Mike's skill level was so high, we could never face the fact that he came into the Buster Douglass fight in perfect condition and got outclassed. (he lacked brains and guts). Regardless of how fast and strong he was, let's not forget that boxing is at it's most basic, a self defense technique invented for a man of lesser strength to employ basic fundamentals and take on a much stronger man. This is all Buster did. Take advantage of the theory that boxing was invented specifically to defeat the Tyson's of the world.

4. Any coincidence that Tyson lost to every exceptional HW fighter he fought? Any logical reason why he never fought Foreman? Not really. Compare his record of opponents to Holyfield's. It doesn't even approach the same scale. Put them together and Van destroys him 10 out of 10 times.

5. Conclusion: Tyson is very exciting when he's in control. His offense is the most exciting and dynamic since a young Ali. However, once he's hit by a fighter who shows no fear, he's gone, finished. Tyson's greatest self revealing comment? "Everyone has a plan until they get hit." If this statement is not the theme of Tyson's career, I missed a great deal of his fights. Problem is, I saw just about all of them.

This shall be merged with the Tyson underrated thread.

qdagoverner wrote:he did beat two hall of fame opponents, he did. a cruiserweight who got two gift decisions against holmes and a over the hill larry holmes who had 2 months to train for a fight after being gone for years...who were the hof opponents? either you are or your not..if people dont consider the klits greats than why mike?

Lol, ONLY 2 MONTHS.

Frank wrote:In other words, when the career is looked at, it's not quite as impressive as it was supposed to be.

I think this is why he gets criticized. Like I said before, Tyson gets judged on what he should've done and other fighters get judged on what they did.

Tyson was the youngest champ in HW history, unified the belts, put on a great show, and managed to put a comeback to reclaim a belt. Those are significant accomplishments. To compare him to someone like Bowe is crazy. But it happens because Tyson and other high talent fighters face a different standard.

If Tyson knocks a guy out it shows he can't go the distance. If Tyson goes the distance it shows his power isn't really that impressive. If Tyson takes a $ fight over a higher profile fight it's because he's scared. If Tyson takes a high profile fight and loses it's because he was never really any good and only showing up for a check. Etc. The bottom line is that Tyson is an extremely polarizing figure and it shades how people view him. He was a thug who didn't bend for anyone and was ruthless and crazy.

As a fighter he was something we had never seen before and haven't seen since. A HW with elite power and speed (arguably the hardest puncher and fastest puncher ever). He had a solid chin, solid fundamentals, and he liked to fight. His most underrated quality was intelligence. His flaws were he was short and had trouble with tall fighters. When he was younger he could work through that with patience, great footwork, and a higher work rate. When he was older he just took punishment.

As for some of your other points:
- I don't think Tyson was at his peak against Douglass. He had progressively been regressing inside and outside of the ring.
- I think Tyson recognized the threat they posed to him (he waited until he could cash in against Lewis).
- I don't think Evander beats Tyson 10 out of 10. I also think Evander's losses get glossed over when remembering his career. In a lot of ways he's the polar opposite of Tyson and gets the reverse Tyson treatment.