HAGLER-RAY REVISTED

first im going to say without any doubts theres no way hagler won that fight nor no way he desereved a draw..he lost period.contrary to popular thoughts ray did not steal rounds in the last few seconds.he outsmarted marvin and outpounched him the emtire fight.
i just finished watching the fight and indeed it was excellent.i changed my mind that if marvin so called had fought southpaw it may of made a differnce.it would not have for the first 2 rounds hagler fought right handed the rest of the time he did not and ray still shinned.the ninth round of the fight was the best round..the other 2 times i scored the fight i had it 115-113 ray this time after watching with total consintration i had it 116-112 ray..ray closed out the fight the last 2 rounds...frank had said before marvin was very predicable and i can understand why he said that...first the whole night the body was there for marvin and he ignored it..a basilio or fullmer would of not ignored that htiable body..i gave rounds 1 2 3 4 6 10 11 12 to ray..marvin 5 7 8 9...the only swing round may of been round ten which both annoucers stated but gave it to ray..the other 2 times i scored the fight i gave it to marvin slightly this time i didnt..so 116-112 or 115-113 is the correct scoring.
there is no evidence as stated by others that marvin was a big middleweight.hes a regular one and certainly not bigger then jake or fullmer nor any evidence he was the strongest.no where near the strenth of jake or fullmer or a small middle named basilio..when both fighters were fresh it was leanord pushing hagler back.ray showed as much strenth or even more then marvin..
both fought at a good pace and both showed serious signs of exhaustion the last 3 or so rounds.
a great fight that exceeded the hype but ray won the fight.no controversy should of taken place..

dmar5143 wrote:first im going to say without any doubts theres no way hagler won that fight nor no way he desereved a draw..he lost period.contrary to popular thoughts ray did not steal rounds in the last few seconds.he outsmarted marvin and outpounched him the emtire fight.
i just finished watching the fight and indeed it was excellent.i changed my mind that if marvin so called had fought southpaw it may of made a differnce.it would not have for the first 2 rounds hagler fought right handed the rest of the time he did not and ray still shinned.the ninth round of the fight was the best round..the other 2 times i scored the fight i had it 115-113 ray this time after watching with total consintration i had it 116-112 ray..ray closed out the fight the last 2 rounds...frank had said before marvin was very predicable and i can understand why he said that...first the whole night the body was there for marvin and he ignored it..a basilio or fullmer would of not ignored that htiable body..i gave rounds 1 2 3 4 6 10 11 12 to ray..marvin 5 7 8 9...the only swing round may of been round ten which both annoucers stated but gave it to ray..the other 2 times i scored the fight i gave it to marvin slightly this time i didnt..so 116-112 or 115-113 is the correct scoring.
there is no evidence as stated by others that marvin was a big middleweight.hes a regular one and certainly not bigger then jake or fullmer nor any evidence he was the strongest.no where near the strenth of jake or fullmer or a small middle named basilio..when both fighters were fresh it was leanord pushing hagler back.ray showed as much strenth or even more then marvin..
both fought at a good pace and both showed serious signs of exhaustion the last 3 or so rounds.
a great fight that exceeded the hype but ray won the fight.no controversy should of taken place..

Well said, dmar.

I'd like to add that, in the case of controversial fights, if there are anymore major disagreements as to who won certain fights, we go to You Tube, find the fight, and score it on a 10 point must system.

Any fight scored round by round was not scored (my opinion.). If I knock a fighter down twice in round one and he out jabs me in round two, the round by round system records the fight as even. So much for that primative system. It's an embarrassment, not just to boxing, but to sports in general.

D'mar went back and scored the Hagler - Leonard fight. If there are any disagreements on his card, please go back and score the fight yourself. If you don't have time, score the fight in spurts. 2 rounds here, 3 rounds there, until you're finished.

I have a lot of fights that I'd like to score. For example, let me mention that I thought Ali won the 1st Frazier fight. Numerous members of this board would scoff at my opinion, yet when I challenge them to score the fight, they become silent. Not to say that this proves my call is right (it doesn't) but it kind of makes me think they agree with me (smile). What else am I to think? I also thought Carlos Zarate was ripped off in his fight with Lupe Pintor. Disagree? The fight's on You Tube. Score it on a ten point must system. (Note: If anyone does not know how to use the 10 point system, I'd be happy to show them. It's very simple.)

I'm not writing this to challenge anyone to a contest or to glorify certain fighters. It's just that I hear so much complaining from announcers based on decisions that really were not that bad. For example, the first Evander Holyfield - Lennnox Lewis fight. I had Lennox 4 points ahead going into the 9th round. Then Lennox stopped fighting. No real action took place, however Van was the aggressor and I gave him the last four rounds with a 10-9 score for each of them which made the fight a draw. The judges scored it a draw as well, however HBO's announcers had a fit. Even though more than one member of the boxing press scored it a draw, the announcers were able to get their opinions across so strongly that it appeared everyone agreed with them (which was not the case.).

Bert Sugar stated that Duran beat Leonard from pillar to pillar in their first fight. Yes, Duran won. However, it was a GREAT fight, not a one sided affair. I know some experienced boxing fans that consider that to be their favorite fight.

Scoring fights is the answer to settling disagreements on certain fights, not just stating your opinon. My call.

At the very most it should have been a 115-113 score for either fighter.To say Ray won it 116-112 is absurd.I had it 114-114.Too bad this fight didn't happen five years earlier when Marvin's people were trying to persuade Leonard's people to fight Hagler.Ray was wise enough to stay away from a 1981-82 Marv.

115-113 for marvin is far more absurb then 116-112 for ray..i qualified that swing round saying this time i gave it to ray..there were no other swing rounds in the fight..ray took the first 4 rounds and the last round without any doubt by anyone except hagler die hard fans..theres no way and i say no way hagler then won all the other rounds all 7 in a row.thats absurb to make it 115-113 hagler then..many can say a draw there ok with..well hagler lost and a draw to marvin is something he did not earn nor deserve.ray outsmarted him and hagler must of felt he won every round maybe.thats aburb also.

Ray admitted that he instructed his corner to give him a 30 second warning so he could step it up & "steal" rounds. Either way, it's impossible to score a fight in an unbiased manor when you've already made up your mind. You'll see the rounds for the fighter you thought won without even knowing it.

flapanther2001 wrote:Ray admitted that he instructed his corner to give him a 30 second warning so he could step it up & "steal" rounds. Either way, it's impossible to score a fight in an unbiased manor when you've already made up your mind. You'll see the rounds for the fighter you thought won without even knowing it.

..you can score a round and a fight unbias..its more then possible.no matter what ray said and some of that is taken with a grain of salt lol to add insalt to injury ray did not steal any rounds.if landing a 6 or 7 or 8 punch flurry without a return punch landing does not steal a round..it closes a round that either you already won or was a close round that now ends in your favor.hagler was outsmarted and yes outfought that night.he lost.

rounds are a full 3 minutes not 2 minutes and thirty seconds.that was one fight i didnt lean towards one guy or the other as far as rooting for..in the pavik-martinez fight i was rooting for kelly but had sergio winiing with ease..in all honesty harold letterman is a guy who knows how to judge a fight and does it without bias even if he is rooting for a fighter etc etc.

dmar5143 wrote:rounds are a full 3 minutes not 2 minutes and thirty seconds.that was one fight i didnt lean towards one guy or the other as far as rooting for..in the pavik-martinez fight i was rooting for kelly but had sergio winiing with ease..in all honesty harold letterman is a guy who knows how to judge a fight and does it without bias even if he is rooting for a fighter etc etc.

Revisit your history on Ray Leonard. Ray was as smart a fighter as there ever was. How many fights were stopped because Ray knew how to flurry & make the ref feel like his opponent was in trouble. Ray was the best at this. I'm not saying he wasn't a great fighter...he was. He also had a plan for fighting Hagler which included the 30 second ruse. As far as scoring a fight, if you feel that Ray won, then no matter what happens, your mind will not allow you to "see" the fight in an unbiased manor.

lol i just saw the fight round by round in a unbiased manor.after scoring the fight i had ray wining.the first time i watched the fight round by round unbiased and i had ray wining.now how can i have ray wining the first fight before it happened or think ray won the first fight before it happened.thats not possible.that night live i had ray wining the fight.yes round by round..punch by punch flury by flury.in all honesty if you think ray won rounds by stealing a round with a 30 second flury ONLY then its you that may be bias.look again and see if every roiund ray ended every round with a 30 second flury per his instructions to his corner..that simply did not happen all 12 rounds.he when he scored that flury 1. he either closed out a round he already was wining or won that round which was up for grabs or close to that point.that put him over the top in close rounds.thats how you score a round and also win a round by fighting..hagler could of fought back effectively when that happened.he did not.
its not a case where one fighter dominated the entire round except for the last 30 or less seconds.that if it happens the round goes to the guy who dominated..there was no such round like that in the fight.if you look at the fight haglers corner told him he desperatly needs to win the last round big..after the fight haglers parading around with his dance celebration moves like he won with ease.
he simply was outsmarted and yes outfought that night.everyone in the whole place including haglers handlers knew that except marvin...
sorry but the words of haglers corner you need to win it big and the crowd reaction as well as the annouchers felt so also.so did i.hagler needed a few knockdowns or a knockdown to pull it out.you need to win this round big marvin we need it desperatly...

There is a debate over this fight (Hagler vs. Leonard) however there is no debate vs. the fact that Leonard easily won the first 4 rounds in a 12 round fight. Give away 4 rounds in a 15 round fight (The legitimate number of rounds for a championship fight, by the way.) and you're way behind.

The middle rounds, were questionable as to who they went to. However, in the exchanges they had, Ray was able to come off of the ropes and back Hagler up.

For Hagler fans, I will say for the millionth time that your man has an argument for the highest pain threshold in the history of the sport. He takes a better punch than any middleweight I've ever seen. I say this because Ray was landing beautiful shots on Marvin. Just because Hagler didn't flinch, please don't believe the shots were lightweight. Every boxing expert will attest that the most underrated factor about Ray was his strength. This boxing expertise combined with punching power that made Duran say "No Mas" and slapped around Ayub Kalule as though he was a featherweight, was going full circle the night Ray outboxed Hagler.

We can score the fight if that's what is needed, however I don't think it's necessary. Ray won the fight.

I'll score it this weekend.

Frank wrote:There is a debate over this fight (Hagler vs. Leonard) however there is no debate vs. the fact that Leonard easily won the first 4 rounds in a 12 round fight. Give away 4 rounds in a 15 round fight (The legitimate number of rounds for a championship fight, by the way.) and you're way behind.

The middle rounds, were questionable as to who they went to. However, in the exchanges they had, Ray was able to come off of the ropes and back Hagler up.

For Hagler fans, I will say for the millionth time that your man has an argument for the highest pain threshold in the history of the sport. He takes a better punch than any middleweight I've ever seen. I say this because Ray was landing beautiful shots on Marvin. Just because Hagler didn't flinch, please don't believe the shots were lightweight. Every boxing expert will attest that the most underrated factor about Ray was his strength. This boxing expertise combined with punching power that made Duran say "No Mas" and slapped around Ayub Kalule as though he was a featherweight, was going full circle the night Ray outboxed Hagler.

We can score the fight if that's what is needed, however I don't think it's necessary. Ray won the fight.

There is GREAT debate over the bolded portion. I happen to think Hagler won two of those rounds.

This fight is over 20 years old fellas, there is a REASON it is used to this day by boxing comissions and others to train judges. It come down to the part of the sport most fans (even very old life-long ones) dont really understand. Subjectivity. Harder punches landed. (who knows but for the guy taking the shots?!) clean effective punching (should be easy, but how many times do you see a blocked flurry credited as landed or a clean body blow ignored?). Ring generalship (This one is often the deciding factor and is many times PURELY a matter of opinion).
To think that you can bring up a point that the thousands, and thousands of people who have scored and debated this fight might have missed is absurd. You are not the only ones that think Ray won and cant be swayed. I am not the only one that thinks Hagler won and cant b swayed either. If you think you can change my mind, you are wrong. I am not foolish enough to think I might somehow be able to do the same to you. People still argue about this fight and none of the arguments are unique. I have heard them all from both sides. In my opinion, Hagler won.
I also think Holyfield beat Lewis in the second fight. I think Holmes beat Spinks in the rematch every bit as much as I believe he lost the first fight. I think that Trinidad beat ODLH. I think John-John-Molina beat him too. I dont think Quartey did. I think Whitaker beat Oscar as well. Decisions are subjective in boxing. Its no suprise that the decisions are controversial. Heck, the scoring system in Ice-Skating is also subjective.... Frank can tell you all about the shaky decisions in that sport.

lawyer on the other descions i agree mostly with you..since you are a huge hagler fan and thought marvin won 2 out of the first 4 rounds means then marvin lost the fight for sure..round 1 marvin landed one punch a body punch.ray landed 2 good combos 7 jabs and a good right hand.none were blocked rd 1 ray..round 2 marvin got hit again with 4 combinations a body shot 4 or 5 jabs .marvin landed a body shot one left partcialy blocked a 2 other punches.rd 2 ray.in the first 4 rounds yes ring generalship..ray intelligently and effectively boxed ducked punches and made marvin miss several times.effective defense ray erffective boxing ray and good use of the ring.marvins agreesivesness was ineffective.ring generalship ray.round 3 marvins best round for a close minute and a half.ray again landed several good combos that were not blocked jabs and matched marvin with body shots.hagler did less and landed less effective punches.round 4 same ring generalship advantage to ray..he even landed the hardest body punch in the fight thus far a clowning hard shot.hit marvin with several combos that included 3 big right hands and twice worked out of a clinch with a body and head shot while marvin did nothing..round four more of the same.ray landed more effective clean shots to marvins head that were not blocked.out jabbed him and threw more punches then marvin landing more with effectiveness and had a better defense as well as boxing abilty..hagler got beat all four rounds..gil clancy agrees and he knows how to score a fight.so do i..i pay attention to every detail totaly focused with deep consintration.
i agree that the intent isnt changing folks minds but the things you claimed marvin did the first four rounds simply wasnt there including the ring generalship.

i also agree every point made about this fight probablys been said a few times over.

dmar5143 wrote:lawyer on the other descions i agree mostly with you..since you are a huge hagler fan and thought marvin won 2 out of the first 4 rounds means then marvin lost the fight for sure..round 1 marvin landed one punch a body punch.ray landed 2 good combos 7 jabs and a good right hand.none were blocked rd 1 ray..round 2 marvin got hit again with 4 combinations a body shot 4 or 5 jabs .marvin landed a body shot one left partcialy blocked a 2 other punches.rd 2 ray.in the first 4 rounds yes ring generalship..ray intelligently and effectively boxed ducked punches and made marvin miss several times.effective defense ray erffective boxing ray and good use of the ring.marvins agreesivesness was ineffective.ring generalship ray.round 3 marvins best round for a close minute and a half.ray again landed several good combos that were not blocked jabs and matched marvin with body shots.hagler did less and landed less effective punches.round 4 same ring generalship advantage to ray..he even landed the hardest body punch in the fight thus far a clowning hard shot.hit marvin with several combos that included 3 big right hands and twice worked out of a clinch with a body and head shot while marvin did nothing..round four more of the same.ray landed more effective clean shots to marvins head that were not blocked.out jabbed him and threw more punches then marvin landing more with effectiveness and had a better defense as well as boxing abilty..hagler got beat all four rounds..gil clancy agrees and he knows how to score a fight.so do i..i pay attention to every detail totaly focused with deep consintration.
i agree that the intent isnt changing folks minds but the things you claimed marvin did the first four rounds simply wasnt there including the ring generalship.

We get it, we get it, you think Ray won the fight.

dmar5143 wrote:lawyer on the other descions i agree mostly with you..since you are a huge hagler fan and thought marvin won 2 out of the first 4 rounds means then marvin lost the fight for sure..round 1 marvin landed one punch a body punch.ray landed 2 good combos 7 jabs and a good right hand.none were blocked rd 1 ray..round 2 marvin got hit again with 4 combinations a body shot 4 or 5 jabs .marvin landed a body shot one left partcialy blocked a 2 other punches.rd 2 ray.in the first 4 rounds yes ring generalship..ray intelligently and effectively boxed ducked punches and made marvin miss several times.effective defense ray erffective boxing ray and good use of the ring.marvins agreesivesness was ineffective.ring generalship ray.round 3 marvins best round for a close minute and a half.ray again landed several good combos that were not blocked jabs and matched marvin with body shots.hagler did less and landed less effective punches.round 4 same ring generalship advantage to ray..he even landed the hardest body punch in the fight thus far a clowning hard shot.hit marvin with several combos that included 3 big right hands and twice worked out of a clinch with a body and head shot while marvin did nothing..round four more of the same.ray landed more effective clean shots to marvins head that were not blocked.out jabbed him and threw more punches then marvin landing more with effectiveness and had a better defense as well as boxing abilty..hagler got beat all four rounds..gil clancy agrees and he knows how to score a fight.so do i..i pay attention to every detail totaly focused with deep consintration.
i agree that the intent isnt changing folks minds but the things you claimed marvin did the first four rounds simply wasnt there including the ring generalship.

Actually, I only scored ONE of the first four rounds for Hagler, before his OBVIOUS 5th round. AN argument can (and has) been made for Marvin winning the fourth. You know how to score, so watch the 3rd round again very closely with the knowledge hat illegal blows dont COUNT. This is low blows, rabit punches, etc.. Ray does NOTHING for the first half of the round but back away and take jabs from Marvin. He then lands an ILLEGAL (and thus not counted) low blow and a very good hook, which Marvin follows up with a pair of jabs and a glancing punch. Who was winning up to that point? cause that was the whole round right there. Nothing else happen after that.

Dammit!! You sucked me in again. I REFUSE to post on this topic again...........

I already caved..............Just read that "Ray closed the fight out in the 12th round". WHAT?!?!?!?! He threw 3 punches in the 12th round! THREEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!

boxinglawyer wrote: I already caved..............Just read that "Ray closed the fight out in the 12th round". WHAT?!?!?!?! He threw 3 punches in the 12th round! THREEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!

...realy i sucked you in lol..naw..so ray threw only 3 punches in the 12th round.you must of missed a ten punch combination ray threw around 1.45 or so to go in the 12th round that hagler blocked all ten with his face.or landing 3 other shots the last few seconds of the round.etc etc..

lets see nothing happened in the third round after that you claim..that was the round.ray did nothing..actualy it was marvin who did nothing.ray landed 1.a good solid right hand2.out of a clinch a good body shot followed by a right hand.soon after that ray landed a 3 punch combo all on marvins face.at the end of the round ray landed clean head punch marvin one body punch and ray finished with a combo to marvins face..thats what happened after that..3 punches you said ray threw the entire 12th round. no disrespect but are you sure you realy watched that fight or round.

dmar5143 wrote:lawyer on the other descions i agree mostly with you..since you are a huge hagler fan and thought marvin won 2 out of the first 4 rounds means then marvin lost the fight for sure..round 1 marvin landed one punch a body punch.ray landed 2 good combos 7 jabs and a good right hand.none were blocked rd 1 ray..round 2 marvin got hit again with 4 combinations a body shot 4 or 5 jabs .marvin landed a body shot one left partcialy blocked a 2 other punches.rd 2 ray.in the first 4 rounds yes ring generalship..ray intelligently and effectively boxed ducked punches and made marvin miss several times.effective defense ray erffective boxing ray and good use of the ring.marvins agreesivesness was ineffective.ring generalship ray.round 3 marvins best round for a close minute and a half.ray again landed several good combos that were not blocked jabs and matched marvin with body shots.hagler did less and landed less effective punches.round 4 same ring generalship advantage to ray..he even landed the hardest body punch in the fight thus far a clowning hard shot.hit marvin with several combos that included 3 big right hands and twice worked out of a clinch with a body and head shot while marvin did nothing..round four more of the same.ray landed more effective clean shots to marvins head that were not blocked.out jabbed him and threw more punches then marvin landing more with effectiveness and had a better defense as well as boxing abilty..hagler got beat all four rounds..gil clancy agrees and he knows how to score a fight.so do i..i pay attention to every detail totaly focused with deep consintration.
i agree that the intent isnt changing folks minds but the things you claimed marvin did the first four rounds simply wasnt there including the ring generalship.

boxinglawyer wrote:

Frank wrote:There is a debate over this fight (Hagler vs. Leonard) however there is no debate vs. the fact that Leonard easily won the first 4 rounds in a 12 round fight. Give away 4 rounds in a 15 round fight (The legitimate number of rounds for a championship fight, by the way.) and you're way behind.

The middle rounds, were questionable as to who they went to. However, in the exchanges they had, Ray was able to come off of the ropes and back Hagler up.

For Hagler fans, I will say for the millionth time that your man has an argument for the highest pain threshold in the history of the sport. He takes a better punch than any middleweight I've ever seen. I say this because Ray was landing beautiful shots on Marvin. Just because Hagler didn't flinch, please don't believe the shots were lightweight. Every boxing expert will attest that the most underrated factor about Ray was his strength. This boxing expertise combined with punching power that made Duran say "No Mas" and slapped around Ayub Kalule as though he was a featherweight, was going full circle the night Ray outboxed Hagler.

We can score the fight if that's what is needed, however I don't think it's necessary. Ray won the fight.

There is GREAT debate over the bolded portion. I happen to think Hagler won two of those rounds.

This fight is over 20 years old fellas, there is a REASON it is used to this day by boxing comissions and others to train judges. It come down to the part of the sport most fans (even very old life-long ones) dont really understand. Subjectivity. Harder punches landed. (who knows but for the guy taking the shots?!) clean effective punching (should be easy, but how many times do you see a blocked flurry credited as landed or a clean body blow ignored?). Ring generalship (This one is often the deciding factor and is many times PURELY a matter of opinion).
To think that you can bring up a point that the thousands, and thousands of people who have scored and debated this fight might have missed is absurd. You are not the only ones that think Ray won and cant be swayed. I am not the only one that thinks Hagler won and cant b swayed either. If you think you can change my mind, you are wrong. I am not foolish enough to think I might somehow be able to do the same to you. People still argue about this fight and none of the arguments are unique. I have heard them all from both sides. In my opinion, Hagler won.
I also think Holyfield beat Lewis in the second fight. I think Holmes beat Spinks in the rematch every bit as much as I believe he lost the first fight. I think that Trinidad beat ODLH. I think John-John-Molina beat him too. I dont think Quartey did. I think Whitaker beat Oscar as well. Decisions are subjective in boxing. Its no suprise that the decisions are controversial. Heck, the scoring system in Ice-Skating is also subjective.... Frank can tell you all about the shaky decisions in that sport.

Hey BL, I would never try and change your mind about anything. LOL I was honestly trying to make a point. If you stated that Rosanne Barr was sexier than Natalie Portman, I'd vehemently disagree with you, however at the end of the day, I'd just think, "BL likes em big."

Glad we agree on certain fights. I like your call on Lewis - Holyfield II and Oscar vs. Molina. As far as the DeLaHoya - Whitaker fight, anybody who makes it to the end of that piece of shit fight has my respect. I simply can't do it nor can I score a fight between two guys who shadow boxed for 12 rounds. As far as Trinidad vs. ODLH, see my take on the first Holyfield - Lewis fight. I had Oscar ahead by 4 points going into the 9th round. Oscar stopped fighting, Felix, though not landing any telling punches, was the aggressor and I scored the last four rounds for him making that fight a draw. I don't think Felix won the fight. It was what Oscar didn't do which allowed it to be a draw on my card. Larry Holmes did win the 2nd Spinks fight.

For your information, I love the female figure skating competition, but don't have an idea in hell how to score those things. Too busy looking at legs, etc. Seriously, I actually like that competition. The "Nancy Kerrigan - Tonya Harding situation caught my interest and made me a fan of female figure skaing (I liked Nancy but the Russian girl beat her out that year.). Watching Tonya Harding fall on her ass was one of my favorite moments in Olympic History, though I'm sure it didn't hurt that bad. Babe had a big ass.

I'd like to make a certain point here about fighters who are ahead by a large margin, then stop figthing, giving the other fighter the chance to come back and make what should be an easy UD win into a paper thin decision. Roy Jones made a brilliant point the night of the Oscar fight. He stated, "When you have a lead like Oscar did going into the 9th round, you win every other round." I'll tell it like this. When I was in college, I had a friend that got accepted into Harvard Law School. Though he was entering his senior year, he felt college had ended for him and flunked every class. Harvard threw him the fuck out. If that story doesn't inspire these fighters to keep winning rounds dispite being way ahead on points, nothing will.

leonard won the most important fight by unanimous decision.the one before they stepped in the ring

shakefree wrote:leonard won the most important fight by unanimous decision.the one before they stepped in the ring

Yup.Ray sure did mind fuck Hagler.