IMAGINARY CRUISERS

I am going to pretend that a sub-200, over 175 pound divison (measured by a same day weigh-in) has always existed. Rather than looking at resumes to rank guys I'd like to propose the following. That guys fight one fight against all the other guys on the list.

Here are ten guys, extraordinary fighters all, who spent a significant portion of their careers under 200 pounds. In no order.

Sam Langford
Rocky Marciano
Jack Dempsey
Joe Louis
Roy Jones
Evander Holyfield
Jerry Quarry
Archie Moore
Ezzard Charles
Gene Tunney

15 round fights, 8 oz gloves, refs and doctors try not to act prematurely, 20 foot ring.

So here's the question for you guys. You don't have to rank all ten or pick fights (but feel free to). I'd love to know who you think the top 3-4 would be at the end and why.

Here is my top three that I think would beat everyone else on the list.

1. Joe Lewis
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Evander Holyfield

Joe Lewis and Rocky are a tie really but I give the slight edge in a prime vs prime fight to Lewis. Evander only loses to Rocky and Joe IMO. I just cant see any of the other guys beating those three. Am I wrong?

Here's my view

1. Joe Louis-I think he goes unbeaten with tight/tough fights with Gene Tunney, Jack Dempsey and Marciano.

2. Jack Dempsey-He loses to Tunney, Louis and Sam Langford who scared him to death.

3. Marciano/Holyfield-I think these two are awfully close in terms of what they would have gotten done. The question is who wins their fight. I haven't a clue.

Roy Jones is I think a real wild card. I suspect he'd be way ahead after seven rounds in almost every fight. The question is is he fast enough to avoid Langford, Louis, Dempsey, Marciano and Moore for 15 rounds? Nobody is harder on Roy than me, but was he fast enough to stay out of trouble and win decisions?

Soonermark890 wrote:Here is my top three that I think would beat everyone else on the list.

1. Joe Lewis
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Evander Holyfield

Joe Lewis and Rocky are a tie really but I give the slight edge in a prime vs prime fight to Lewis. Evander only loses to Rocky and Joe IMO. I just cant see any of the other guys beating those three. Am I wrong?

WRONG??????? In woulda coulda shoulda land? The only wrong is to compliment Mr. Ronald Wright.

Are we undervaluing Tunney?

marbleheadmaui wrote:Here's my view

1. Joe Louis-I think he goes unbeaten with tight/tough fights with Gene Tunney, Jack Dempsey and Marciano.

2. Jack Dempsey-He loses to Tunney, Louis and Sam Langford who scared him to death.

3. Marciano/Holyfield-I think these two are awfully close in terms of what they would have gotten done. The question is who wins their fight. I haven't a clue.

Roy Jones is I think a real wild card. I suspect he'd be way ahead after seven rounds in almost every fight. The question is is he fast enough to avoid Langford, Louis, Dempsey, Marciano and Moore for 15 rounds? Nobody is harder on Roy than me, but was he fast enough to stay out of trouble and win decisions?

Do you think that Dempsey would beat Rocky? I just dont see Dempsey lasting 15 rounds with the rock. Roy is as you said a wild card. The guy was really fast and his power is underrated IMO. I dont think he could stay away from a guy like Rocky. But how would a fight with Joe Louis go with him? That fight would be crazy good.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Soonermark890 wrote:Here is my top three that I think would beat everyone else on the list.

1. Joe Lewis
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Evander Holyfield

Joe Lewis and Rocky are a tie really but I give the slight edge in a prime vs prime fight to Lewis. Evander only loses to Rocky and Joe IMO. I just cant see any of the other guys beating those three. Am I wrong?

WRONG??????? In woulda coulda shoulda land? The only wrong is to compliment Mr. Ronald Wright.

Are we undervaluing Tunney?

No I dont think we are. Not with the list you have up there were not.

Whats wrong with Ronald? (in my hank hill voice)that guy can fight I tell you what.

Soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:Here's my view

1. Joe Louis-I think he goes unbeaten with tight/tough fights with Gene Tunney, Jack Dempsey and Marciano.

2. Jack Dempsey-He loses to Tunney, Louis and Sam Langford who scared him to death.

3. Marciano/Holyfield-I think these two are awfully close in terms of what they would have gotten done. The question is who wins their fight. I haven't a clue.

Roy Jones is I think a real wild card. I suspect he'd be way ahead after seven rounds in almost every fight. The question is is he fast enough to avoid Langford, Louis, Dempsey, Marciano and Moore for 15 rounds? Nobody is harder on Roy than me, but was he fast enough to stay out of trouble and win decisions?

Do you think that Dempsey would beat Rocky? I just dont see Dempsey lasting 15 rounds with the rock. Roy is as you said a wild card. The guy was really fast and his power is underrated IMO. I dont think he could stay away from a guy like Rocky. But how would a fight with Joe Louis go with him? That fight would be crazy good.

Could Dempsey knock Rock out early? Seems unlikely to me. Maybe drop him, but finish him? Nah. Could Dempsey last 15 with the Rock? Probably. I mean a prime Manassa Mauler never really came close to getting stopped, not even by Firpo I don't think. But now that I'm thinking that fight is probably a toss-up. Good question.

See I can see Louis struggling with Jones like he did with Billy Conn...but I really can't see him not catching him at some point. Louis only has to hit him hard once, that would stagger Jones and then it is OVER.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

Soonermark890 wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:Here's my view

1. Joe Louis-I think he goes unbeaten with tight/tough fights with Gene Tunney, Jack Dempsey and Marciano.

2. Jack Dempsey-He loses to Tunney, Louis and Sam Langford who scared him to death.

3. Marciano/Holyfield-I think these two are awfully close in terms of what they would have gotten done. The question is who wins their fight. I haven't a clue.

Roy Jones is I think a real wild card. I suspect he'd be way ahead after seven rounds in almost every fight. The question is is he fast enough to avoid Langford, Louis, Dempsey, Marciano and Moore for 15 rounds? Nobody is harder on Roy than me, but was he fast enough to stay out of trouble and win decisions?

Do you think that Dempsey would beat Rocky? I just dont see Dempsey lasting 15 rounds with the rock. Roy is as you said a wild card. The guy was really fast and his power is underrated IMO. I dont think he could stay away from a guy like Rocky. But how would a fight with Joe Louis go with him? That fight would be crazy good.

Could Dempsey knock Rock out early? Seems unlikely to me. Maybe drop him, but finish him? Nah. Could Dempsey last 15 with the Rock? Probably. I mean a prime Manassa Mauler never really came close to getting stopped, not even by Firpo I don't think. But now that I'm thinking that fight is probably a toss-up. Good question.

See I can see Louis struggling with Jones like he did with Billy Conn...but I really can't see him not catching him at some point. Louis only has to hit him hard once, that would stagger Jones and then it is OVER.

Thats how I see that fight between Louis and Roy. Roy's style and speed would carry that fight late and then he would get caught. Roy would have to be perfect that night in order to survive while Louis doesnt have to be that perfect he just has to hit Roy flush.

actualy for several years i felt the under 200 lb fighters were the best.still do .and yes today that division the unoffical cruser would be amoung the best..1.marciano2.louis3.dempsey4.tunney..its hard to leave a charles out of the top 4 but..its a toss up between louis and rocky..joe felt rocky still may of won because1.he didnt like to be crowded and he said rocky was the best at that and his second reason was he hit me harder then one punch then max did with 100..

roy jones dont belong.why is quarry in and jersey joe walcott not.i think marble just forgot..im far from as high on hollifield as most folks are..he struggled with a plow horse called bert cooper who had a legit knockdown of evander..and 5 ft 5 dwight braxton gave him fits..for most of his career he was well over the 200 lbs where as joe louis flucktuated between 198-202 for a lot of his career.this is a tough series with a archie moore taking a back seat to almost the whole bunch..ive always said if there where 2 dream fights i had to pick to represent boxing the marciano-dempsey would be first the robinson-greb would be second and thats it...
rocky and jack is about as close and great as a matchup you can get..rocky edges jack and sometimes more then edges jack in every department1.chin2.endurance3.stanima 4.punching power thats per dempsey himself telling me that one5.strenth 6.counterpunching and other things...2 of my all time favorites..its world war 3 ...

dmar5143 wrote:actualy for several years i felt the under 200 lb fighters were the best.still do .and yes today that division the unoffical cruser would be amoung the best..1.marciano2.louis3.dempsey4.tunney..its hard to leave a charles out of the top 4 but..its a toss up between louis and rocky..joe felt rocky still may of won because1.he didnt like to be crowded and he said rocky was the best at that and his second reason was he hit me harder then one punch then max did with 100..

I just wonder if Marciano COULD have crowded Louis though. Joe wasn't bad on his back foot, at least for short bursts.

I also wonder if Louis wasn't just being the classy, polite guy he always seemed to be when he said those things. IIRC it was right after the Rock had beaten him. Could be wrong though.

dmar5143 wrote:roy jones dont belong.why is quarry in and jersey joe walcott not.i think marble just forgot..im far from as high on hollifield as most folks are..he struggled with a plow horse called bert cooper who had a legit knockdown of evander..and 5 ft 5 dwight braxton gave him fits..for most of his career he was well over the 200 lbs where as joe louis flucktuated between 198-202 for a lot of his career.this is a tough series with a archie moore taking a back seat to almost the whole bunch..ive always said if there where 2 dream fights i had to pick to represent boxing the marciano-dempsey would be first the robinson-greb would be second and thats it...
rocky and jack is about as close and great as a matchup you can get..rocky edges jack and sometimes more then edges jack in every department1.chin2.endurance3.stanima 4.punching power thats per dempsey himself telling me that one5.strenth 6.counterpunching and other things...2 of my all time favorites..its world war 3 ...

Fascinating. Dempsey had Marciano being the harder puncher? I think Dempsey had a speed advantage here as well as height and a lot of reach. Of course EVERYBODY had a lot of reach on the Rock. That's a really hard fight for me to call. Both huge punchers with excellent chins. It's almost a Hagler-Hearns question. Could Hearns hurt Hagler? Yup. But he busted his hand in three places doing it. It's not hard to imagine each guy hurting the other, it's just hard to imagine either actually not getting up...of course it also seems impossible they could go 15 against each other so where does THAT leave me?

I also think you're being too harsh on Evander. He beat Qawi in his TWELFTH pro fight! He met him a little later and drilled him in four. In their twelfth pro fights Marciano was fighting some guy who was 3-2 and ended up 4-10. Dempsey was still fighting in miner camps in his 12th fight.

roy jones is not fighting cab drivers here.its great fighters that he cant avoid in this situation..roy has never met a fighter close 1000 years close to the fighters here..the other fighters all have meet a roy jones type of fighter many times over and won.these are fighters with high skill level as well as very ahtletic schooled in adverse conditions...honestly in 15 rounds he dont finish a fight the whole 15 with anyone..the craftiness of these fighters is unreal..he will get hit several times over..with a marciano a dempsey trust me its only once and lights out.these fighters will not only capitalize on his mistakes they will force him into making several and will anticipate immediately.

marble evander is a heavy that yes lost 2 out of 3 to bowe and was inept against a vaugh bean..dempsey chin isnt in the rocks class.0.firpo had him down 3 times early johhny sudenburg 10 times in 2 fights nine in the first round of thoses fights and fireman jim flyn did him in the first..rocky down twice with great punches but briefly and as disgussed before it was a rare balance problem and NOT the punch that was the cause..outside that .i agree with your choices.totaly....this is why the members we choze thus far will make a great forum..

When I think of guys in the 190lb. range Marciano,Dempsey and Holyfield would top my list.Since Quarry and Louis sometimes came in the 200lb. range,I had to exclude them from my list.Langford was more of a middleweight or Light Heavyweight.A fight between Rocky and Evander would have been an all out war

WinstonSmith wrote:When I think of guys in the 190lb. range Marciano,Dempsey and Holyfield would top my list.Since Quarry and Louis sometimes came in the 200lb. range,I had to exclude them from my list.Langford was more of a middleweight or Light Heavyweight.A fight between Rocky and Evander would have been an all out war

Can you imagine a round robin, fight to the finish tourney with Dempsey, Evander, Marciano and Holyfield? The violence might be criminal.

evander did have a huge amatuer career..that helps somewhat.non the less yes a terrific fighter but im just not high on him as others are..neighter one of us will change our minds i guess...

dmar5143 wrote:evander did have a huge amatuer career..that helps somewhat.non the less yes a terrific fighter but im just not high on him as others are..neighter one of us will change our minds i guess...

Well I know YOU'RE not gonna

noo doubt a fight beteen any of those 3 is a 5 million ppv lol and worth it..WELCOME WINSTON.

LOL LOLO LOLO MARBLE I REALY AM CHUCKLING..THANKS FOR MAKING MY NIGHT WITH LAUGHTER AND A GOOD TOPIC.

marbleheadmaui wrote:

WinstonSmith wrote:When I think of guys in the 190lb. range Marciano,Dempsey and Holyfield would top my list.Since Quarry and Louis sometimes came in the 200lb. range,I had to exclude them from my list.Langford was more of a middleweight or Light Heavyweight.A fight between Rocky and Evander would have been an all out war

Can you imagine a round robin, fight to the finish tourney with Dempsey, Evander, Marciano and Holyfield? The violence might be criminal.

None of them would have been the same after that tournament.I have often salivated imagining a fight between Marciano and Holyfield or Braxton.Damn!

dmar5143 wrote:noo doubt a fight beteen any of those 3 is a 5 million ppv lol and worth it..WELCOME WINSTON.

Thanks dmar.Thought I'd try it over here.

WinstonSmith wrote:

marbleheadmaui wrote:

WinstonSmith wrote:When I think of guys in the 190lb. range Marciano,Dempsey and Holyfield would top my list.Since Quarry and Louis sometimes came in the 200lb. range,I had to exclude them from my list.Langford was more of a middleweight or Light Heavyweight.A fight between Rocky and Evander would have been an all out war

Can you imagine a round robin, fight to the finish tourney with Dempsey, Evander, Marciano and Holyfield? The violence might be criminal.

None of them would have been the same after that tournament.I have often salivated imagining a fight between Marciano and Holyfield or Braxton.Damn!

Those kinds of matchups don't even warrant the term old school. Those would be freaking prehistoric. I can just imagine the pre-fight negotiations.

Marciano: 16 foot ring?
Holyfield: Let's make it 14. Eight ounce gloves?
Marciano: How about six? Think we need a referee?
Holyfield: Nope

No love for Langford? Guy comes up what today would be more than 4 or 5 divisions and still not cracking anyone's Top 5? Gotta plug my boy from Nova Scotia

Also, the fact that Marciano is really a cruiser/light heavy plays hard into the question of his fantasy match with Lennox we were talking about before.

Ezzard Charles commented,"Rocky numbs you all over,wherever he hits you he hurts you.Another famous historian once remarked,"if you locked all of the Heavyweights past and present in a room together,Marciano would have been the only one walking out.That pretty much sums up the Rock.