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Separation of Church and State

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Post  Soonermark890 Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:55 pm

OK I was teaching the basis of Separation of Church and State to my students and it sparked off a debate in my class. A few students honestly believe and will not listen to any other theories that our founding fathers did not intend for our country to have a separation and that this country was founded on Christianity.

When did this belief start? I dont remember this being a common theory on our countries history when I grew up. It scares me. Its like these ultra conservative Christian groups are trying to rewrite history. The sad part of it is that there are kids that will grow up honestly believing this nonsense.
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Post  powerpuncher Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:46 pm

what ive always understood was mainly that there is no "church" that can govern the country. everybody can choose their own religion. but this country was founded off of basic christian principles and that cant be denied. so i think that separation of church and state is mainly saying that no particular religion has any authority to make any sort of laws.
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Post  Soonermark890 Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:15 am

What basic principals are you referring?

I know our founding fathers wrote down their desires on keeping a separation of church and state. Jefferson and Madison made their thoughts clear on having a divide between the two. I know that they are followers of the enlightenment and that was a prominent belief. A byproduct of the Catholic Church's exploitation of France. The original idea of the separation can be linked back to the Anabaptist. Their ideas have been passed down to modern baptist, Amish, Pentecostalism, and Minonites.

What I am wondering is where did this idea come from that the founding fathers wanted and created our country based on Christianity? Because if they did they sure hid it well given that all their writings suggest the opposite.

Also one student brought up the "in god we trust." thing and I tried to explain to them that it was a phrase added to coins at the end of the civil war and that it did not become our countries motto until the cold war. But I don't think that it changed their minds at all.
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Post  powerpuncher Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:58 am

what i mean by christian morals is i guess referring to religious morals. but im pretty positive (i could be wrong) that all the founding fathers had a christian background rather than another faith (whether or not they really followed it). here is a quote from john adams:
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

he also has a ton of quotes against religion. haha. but again, i think its more of a religion or church rather than being religious and moral. obviously they had seen in their lifetime and had heard of much history of the church taking over governments and corrupting them. so i believe that religion to them was a way of life but not a body to be governed by.
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Post  powerpuncher Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:01 am

Soonermark890 wrote:What basic principals are you referring?

I know our founding fathers wrote down their desires on keeping a separation of church and state. Jefferson and Madison made their thoughts clear on having a divide between the two. I know that they are followers of the enlightenment and that was a prominent belief. A byproduct of the Catholic Church's exploitation of France. The original idea of the separation can be linked back to the Anabaptist. Their ideas have been passed down to modern baptist, Amish, Pentecostalism, and Minonites.

What I am wondering is where did this idea come from that the founding fathers wanted and created our country based on Christianity? Because if they did they sure hid it well given that all their writings suggest the opposite.

Also one student brought up the "in god we trust." thing and I tried to explain to them that it was a phrase added to coins at the end of the civil war and that it did not become our countries motto until the cold war. But I don't think that it changed their minds at all.
i have a brother who is a libertarian (pretty much an anarchist) and he absolutely hates all of the things that happened after the civil war with uniting the country. he wishes that it stayed how it was and that the federal government wasnt united really but was there mainly to regulate a few things. i also have a brother who is the opposite and is almost a communist. haha. he protested in all of those 99% things. i dont know how that happened.
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Post  Soonermark890 Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:58 am

powerpuncher wrote:what i mean by christian morals is i guess referring to religious morals. but im pretty positive (i could be wrong) that all the founding fathers had a christian background rather than another faith (whether or not they really followed it). here is a quote from john adams:
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

he also has a ton of quotes against religion. haha. but again, i think its more of a religion or church rather than being religious and moral. obviously they had seen in their lifetime and had heard of much history of the church taking over governments and corrupting them. so i believe that religion to them was a way of life but not a body to be governed by.
Yeah most of them were christian or diast. Both have a belief in God. Following the morals of Christianity isn't a bad idea.

The reason our founding fathers believed in Separation of Church and State was the experiences and ideas that the Europeans went through with the Catholics.

I wonder what Adams meant by that statement? I know he was a big follower of John Locke. Locke was one of the enlightened thinkers that criticized the role of the Catholic church the most. I love studying this time period. It was full of thinking outside the box.
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Post  powerpuncher Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:20 am

Soonermark890 wrote:
powerpuncher wrote:what i mean by christian morals is i guess referring to religious morals. but im pretty positive (i could be wrong) that all the founding fathers had a christian background rather than another faith (whether or not they really followed it). here is a quote from john adams:
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

he also has a ton of quotes against religion. haha. but again, i think its more of a religion or church rather than being religious and moral. obviously they had seen in their lifetime and had heard of much history of the church taking over governments and corrupting them. so i believe that religion to them was a way of life but not a body to be governed by.
Yeah most of them were christian or diast. Both have a belief in God. Following the morals of Christianity isn't a bad idea.

The reason our founding fathers believed in Separation of Church and State was the experiences and ideas that the Europeans went through with the Catholics.

I wonder what Adams meant by that statement? I know he was a big follower of John Locke. Locke was one of the enlightened thinkers that criticized the role of the Catholic church the most. I love studying this time period. It was full of thinking outside the box.
i believe that that time period was the smartest one ever in any country ever. so many of the founding fathers werent just smart but geniuses. im always intrigued with jefferson because his political ideas are the complete opposite of how he lived. i think that since it was the first time ever really that people were free to say what they wanted, everybody had so many ideas whether or not they followed actually followed them.
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Post  Soonermark890 Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:31 am

powerpuncher wrote:
Soonermark890 wrote:
powerpuncher wrote:what i mean by christian morals is i guess referring to religious morals. but im pretty positive (i could be wrong) that all the founding fathers had a christian background rather than another faith (whether or not they really followed it). here is a quote from john adams:
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

he also has a ton of quotes against religion. haha. but again, i think its more of a religion or church rather than being religious and moral. obviously they had seen in their lifetime and had heard of much history of the church taking over governments and corrupting them. so i believe that religion to them was a way of life but not a body to be governed by.
Yeah most of them were christian or diast. Both have a belief in God. Following the morals of Christianity isn't a bad idea.

The reason our founding fathers believed in Separation of Church and State was the experiences and ideas that the Europeans went through with the Catholics.

I wonder what Adams meant by that statement? I know he was a big follower of John Locke. Locke was one of the enlightened thinkers that criticized the role of the Catholic church the most. I love studying this time period. It was full of thinking outside the box.
i believe that that time period was the smartest one ever in any country ever. so many of the founding fathers werent just smart but geniuses. im always intrigued with jefferson because his political ideas are the complete opposite of how he lived. i think that since it was the first time ever really that people were free to say what they wanted, everybody had so many ideas whether or not they followed actually followed them.
Its my favorite topic to talk about in history. The enlightenment in France and our founding fathers make my students do something they are not used to, they THINK. LOL
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Post  powerpuncher Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:48 am

thinking is a foreign concept to some. i love intellectual conversations and debates. its a pass time in my family (well with some of us anyway). half of the stuff i know and ideas i have formed are because i have debated a lot on certain topics.
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Post  captainanddew Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:30 am

powerpuncher wrote:
Soonermark890 wrote:
powerpuncher wrote:what i mean by christian morals is i guess referring to religious morals. but im pretty positive (i could be wrong) that all the founding fathers had a christian background rather than another faith (whether or not they really followed it). here is a quote from john adams:
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

he also has a ton of quotes against religion. haha. but again, i think its more of a religion or church rather than being religious and moral. obviously they had seen in their lifetime and had heard of much history of the church taking over governments and corrupting them. so i believe that religion to them was a way of life but not a body to be governed by.
Yeah most of them were christian or diast. Both have a belief in God. Following the morals of Christianity isn't a bad idea.

The reason our founding fathers believed in Separation of Church and State was the experiences and ideas that the Europeans went through with the Catholics.

I wonder what Adams meant by that statement? I know he was a big follower of John Locke. Locke was one of the enlightened thinkers that criticized the role of the Catholic church the most. I love studying this time period. It was full of thinking outside the box.
i believe that that time period was the smartest one ever in any country ever. so many of the founding fathers werent just smart but geniuses. im always intrigued with jefferson because his political ideas are the complete opposite of how he lived. i think that since it was the first time ever really that people were free to say what they wanted, everybody had so many ideas whether or not they followed actually followed them.

as for "separation of church and state" that is a line from a Jefferson letter while President to the danbury baptists.

Jefferson's paradoxes. Believed in fiscal discipline, while he was in debt. Men were created equal, but had slaves. He would argue he inherited them, he tried to change things (which he did when he was young), but the truth is he gave up on fighting slavery in any fashion as he aged. And he was a racist. Joseph Ellis's book examines the Jefferson paradoxes and finds that TJ was able to compartmentalize things.

while jefferson believed in the wall, the type of generic statements (non-denominational sayings such as in god we trust) are universal and I don't believe the founders would have been against.

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