Muhammad Ali vs Manny Pac

Ok take a look at this article. Tell me what you guys think about it.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/649728-matt-painter-jim-tressel-brock-lesnar-and-wednesdays-late-sports-buzz/entry/57632-muhammad-ali-will-manny-pacquiao-ever-approach-alis-lasting-legacy

no comment outside of typical nonsence and that joe louis was far more of a hero then ali ever would be and ali called him uncle tom.louis united a nation ali divided one.louis before jackie robinson before anyone made blacks proud of themselves and was a possitive role model.ali is questionable.louis and im quoting rocky marciano who said joe was a credit to his race.the human race.enough of these so called sports writers that are now sociology PHD guys.

louis i might add was a huge influence on desegrigation of the army and other things.ali was a segregationalist.just the oposite..and yes louis was the greater fighter..

I'd argue that Manny is bigger than Ali worldwide. There are more Asians in the world than anybody. And Manny is huge in the Asian culture.

Sure, Ali was bigger in the US. But he was American, and he was a HW back when being the HW Champ was viewed as the highest sporting achievement.

dmar5143 wrote:louis i might add was a huge influence on desegrigation of the army and other things.ali was a segregationalist.just the oposite..and yes louis was the greater fighter..

I could not agree with you more. I never have liked Ali for many many reasons. I just wondered what you guys would think about an article like that. It is a big article right now on the web thats why I posted it.

I think there so many idiots that cover boxing today that don't know shit about boxing, and one few names they do know is Ali, so they basicaly God him up for that reason.

I guarantee the blogger that wrote that never watched a Joe Louis fight in his life, or even knows anything about Joe Louis

I think Ali had a bigger impact on society than Louis, and I think he was the better fighter. Ali didn't separate the country, the country was separated.

Louis himself had a tumultuous history of battling for acceptance in a white man’s sport. In 1935 as a young boxer Louis was told in that in order to become the heavyweight champion he would need to “act white” and appear non-threatening to middle America.

-http://www.944.com/articles/racism-courage-and-the-fbr-open-how-the-journey-to-end-segregation-in-golf-ran-straight-through-phoenix/

Louis was a great man, but he didn't advocate for issues like Ali did when he had the public's eye. He played the part he needed to play to be a positive role model for black people and an acceptable model for white people. Later in his life he became more outspoken about issues of race. Ali was outspoken and wrong on plenty of things but he used his fame to speak out on the injustices he saw and made people listen.

With all that said. I think Manny Pacquiao has the ability to do more than either of them. Because of his career after boxing. I wouldn't be surprised if he became president someday.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=3252137

Solid Joe Louis article that kind of sums up how I feel about him.

Ali just a poster boy for the Black Panther party, and help inspire a generation of black racists in the sport like Hopkins and Mayweather, ect.

it doesnt matter what anybody says or how much you dont like ali, that guy was a master in many aspects of life. ali was not only big in the US, he was big throughout the whole world. it was once said that ali was the only person in his time that could travel to whatever country he wanted to and that country would welcome him. i agree that ali did many things just to be in the public eye, but he knew how to do it. a lot of people hated him, but at the same time, a ton of people loved him.

manny has done a lot and obviously in his country he is huge, but he will never be an ali. like the article said, ali was an ICON. manny is not nor will he ever be. thats not discrediting pac, thats just saying how big of an impact that ali had on everything. and about the joe louis thing, it all depends what you are talking about. louis probably did better things to bring the country together, but we are talking about impact in general, not a better impact. thats like saying louis had a bigger impact on the world than hitler because louis was a better person. hitler obviously had a way bigger impact but he just wasnt a good guy.

Powerpunch, you are dead wrong. Pac is an Icon in Asian culture. And there are a lot more Asians in the world than anybody else. They make up 60% of the population
http://www.mpboxing.com/blog/2011/01/14/asias-most-popular-athletes/
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/273546

Who do think is the most popular athlete in the world right now. What, Kobe? Lebron? No, it's Cristiano Ronaldo.

How many guys could go to a country they never heard of and find out, upon arriving, that they were the country's national hero? Seems like an episode out of the Twilight Zone, but this was the reality of Muhammad Ali. Of course, this was the case in Zaire, however there were many more countries that welcomed Ali as their hero.

Please don't forget that Ali appeared to be fearless at a time when, at least in the South, a black gentleman couldn't look a Caucasian gentleman in the eye without getting in some serious trouble. This is the reality Muhammad Ali lived in Louisville, Kentucky. Ali had no real hatred for anyone. He just felt that if America had created the segregated reality for the races, it was their responsibility to end it. I think, "during his time", he was right. I wasn't living during segregation, however those of you who were knew the horrifying reality of it.

Let's not forget that under the above conditions, any group of people would want a strong, proud, fearless and seemingly invincible person to represent them. I think "Joe Louis" was the greatest KO artist, pound for pound, in the history of the sport. However, Blackburn (his trainer) made it clear to him that he was not to challenge the order of things as they existed in the US during that time. This is why, after his KO of James J. Braddock, he appeared in a clip holding a puppy and appeared to be a harmless manchild. Joe Louis was to be the polar opposite of Jack Johnson. This was not a cowardly move on the part of Louis. It was a survival method. Of course, it was the time, and not Louis who should be ashamed of the act. Joe was a great man and I've heard many older Black males publicly state that Joe was the first Black man they ever heard of who was "publicly" referred to as "An American." (Think about how unfair that is. Anyone else could just be born here, however a Black guy has to be the greatest fighter ever just to be referred to as an American. LOL)

Times have changed drastically. I think the past, for reasons both rational and moral, needs to be forgotten. I don't think we have a need for hate crime laws, at least in the way they're carried out, however America seems to be shell shocked in the horror of yesterday. It's time to imagine a new future, not live in the stink of the past.

That said, the past did exist. It was a past that created the children of the 60's. Abby Hoffman, Lenny Bruce, Martin Luther King, etc were unlike anything that was produced before them. Make no mistake about it. Muhammad Ali was a child of the 60s. He challenged the country on it's morality in relation to it's treatment of minorities and it's war policies... and won. Whether you agree with him or not concerning the Vietnam War (I had the pleasure of listening to a speech by a Vietnam War General yesterday. Though his speech was not in any way political, upon meeting him, I shook his hand and thanked him for his service. He stated, "It was a privilege." As an American, I was honored to hear that. Especially after knowing the hell "Vietnam Vets" faced when coming back to the country they fought so hard for. I do this every time I have the honor of meeting an American warrior/soldier) it must be admitted that Ali had a point that was at least viable and worthy of heavy consideration. I say, let's judge each man by the time he lived in and not by today’s standards and we'll understand them better.

By the way, let's cut out the BS. Love him or hate him, Ali was probably the greatest HW to ever live. He couldn't have gone through the HWs of the past as though they were nothing, but in his prime, his style could get him into every fight regardless of who he was facing.

No reason to hate or love either "Joe Louis" or "Ali" at the expense of the other. They were two different men from two very different times. Honestly, I don't know two men who are more unique in opposite directions of the personality spectrum than Ali and Louis. The only thing these two had in common was an insatiable love for women. Their approach to life and the ring never even had minor similarities.

Just for the record, I find life to best work for me when I take the best aspects out of the "dead Past" and concentrate on those in relation to todays times. Our reality lives in the present, not yesterday. I was at a meeting yesterday where I saw an attractive couple. An Eastern Indian Lawyer and a beautiful German Architect. Both appeared to be in their late 20's or early 30's. Yes, it's been a long time since Germany belonged to that disgusting thing called adolph hitler (His name is deliberately spelled in lower caps.). Nevertheless, if we are to look at certain individuals of the past, let's do a careful study of the environment that produced them before making judgment calls on their characters. My Call.

i doubt very much ali was or is a national hero in several countries as frank said.we are confushing noteriety as hero worship.ali is yes more known then any other public figure except one.that celebrity status -and people want to see a celbrity-is confushed as hero worship of a nation.sports writers then make a statement to that effect..2 studies were done the last one a few years ago on who was the most recognizable face in the world.from movie stars athelits to world leaders to names like christ mohamad gandhi etc etc were in the study.both times ali was second.the amazing thing since no instant mass media like tv internet etc etc existed in the time when the first mans life ..who is the most recognized face in the world..babe ruth thats who..
ali no doubt was a product of his time.and his stand to go to jail rather then get inducted in the army no matter how unpopular that choice was convinced me ali was sincere in his beliefs on that one issue ..yes he was a vocal leader during a time of division and controversy.
ali did do a few things that took the oposite path.some are truly unforgiveable and yet he was rewardedand honored when he should of not been..
overall his impact cannot be denide.possitive mostly .yes.
mannys impact is similar but different perhaps..to say pac is fake not genuine a phoney etc etc is pure hatred and bullshit.to say the same about ali is equaly nonsence.
as a boxing fan alis far from a favorite of mine..as a person there are things he did i dislike immensly and some i hate..there also is part of me that not only likes ali but admires him..hes very intelligent personable and has a natural boyish charm about him.in many interviews i watched he displayed all of that plus a calm brutal honesty..his courage weather we agree or disagree is to be commended.hes grown as a person which is a major plus..
pac his family the oriental heritage and culture tradition is to be understood and respected.hes not a phoney.i work with 14 philapinos..one knows pac slightly and his family more then slightly..manny is what he shows.he has a inner natural passion and compassion for people.not just the phills.hes given hope to folks in a impoveraged overall third world country thats as corrupt as you can get.hes a rose in a sewer or garbadge dump..
to compare whos more influential is irellivent..both were and are.

dmar5143 wrote:i doubt very much ali was or is a national hero in several countries as frank said.we are confushing noteriety as hero worship.ali is yes more known then any other public figure except one.that celebrity status -and people want to see a celbrity-is confushed as hero worship of a nation.sports writers then make a statement to that effect..2 studies were done the last one a few years ago on who was the most recognizable face in the world.from movie stars athelits to world leaders to names like christ mohamad gandhi etc etc were in the study.both times ali was second.the amazing thing since no instant mass media like tv internet etc etc existed in the time when the first mans life ..who is the most recognized face in the world..babe ruth thats who..
ali no doubt was a product of his time.and his stand to go to jail rather then get inducted in the army no matter how unpopular that choice was convinced me ali was sincere in his beliefs on that one issue ..yes he was a vocal leader during a time of division and controversy.
ali did do a few things that took the oposite path.some are truly unforgiveable and yet he was rewardedand honored when he should of not been..
overall his impact cannot be denide.possitive mostly .yes.
mannys impact is similar but different perhaps..to say pac is fake not genuine a phoney etc etc is pure hatred and bullshit.to say the same about ali is equaly nonsence.
as a boxing fan alis far from a favorite of mine..as a person there are things he did i dislike immensly and some i hate..there also is part of me that not only likes ali but admires him..hes very intelligent personable and has a natural boyish charm about him.in many interviews i watched he displayed all of that plus a calm brutal honesty..his courage weather we agree or disagree is to be commended.hes grown as a person which is a major plus..
pac his family the oriental heritage and culture tradition is to be understood and respected.hes not a phoney.i work with 14 philapinos..one knows pac slightly and his family more then slightly..manny is what he shows.he has a inner natural passion and compassion for people.not just the phills.hes given hope to folks in a impoveraged overall third world country thats as corrupt as you can get.hes a rose in a sewer or garbadge dump..
to compare whos more influential is irellivent..both were and are.

I can agree with most of this. I think it's well said. Just curious, dmar (I mean this honestly.). What are some of the things you hate about Ali? Does it begin and end with the war and his membership in The Nation of Islam?

Just one factor here. Ali is a national hero, not just a celebrity, in many countries. The Beattles were international celebrities. Women rushed to the airports to welcome them. An example of the difference between Ali and an international celebrity can be the following: Following Ali's win over Foreman, Ali and his camp travelled over 100s of miles through Zaire. Every single household came out and lifted their babies up in the air as a tribute to Ali and his victory. It was stated by many scholars all over the world and in particular, citizens of Zaire that "Ali was a hero to Africa and Africans." See the critically acclaimed documentary, "When We Were Kings."

Frank wrote:I think the past, for reasons both rational and moral, needs to be forgotten.

This was the only part of your post I disagreed with. I don't think we can forget our past, especially since it shapes the way we live in the present. I think if anything everyone needs to understand the past so that we can collectively learn from it and treat each other better.

dmar5143 wrote:i doubt very much ali was or is a national hero in several countries as frank said.we are confushing noteriety as hero worship.

Ali has had a much bigger international legacy than just notoriety. First, it's the way he fought. I know people who don't like boxing because it's violent but loved watching Ali fight because he made it beautiful. Also, he's respected because he took a stand for what he believed in. I think people outside of this country have more appreciation for that because they have a different perspective on US history. I've spoken to plenty of people throughout Latin America who will say Ali was a great man and know little else about boxing. Add to that his battle with Parkinson's which has given him tons of sympathy and his legacy has become even greater. Ali was a celebrity and a civil rights leader.

Manny is on another level though. As a politician he can act from a position of authority. That wasn't a possibility for Louis or Ali. I'm not sure on the type of person Pac is, but he's in a position with a lot of influence. He's a a universally well-liked celebrity who can do things through official channels internationally. I think the question started off as dumb but its got everybody thinking.

frank i dont hate ali for his views on the war nor his religious beliefs..i hated the fact that he threw his gold metal in the river in rome italy.now look you can voice your opposition to politics predudice injustices etc etc very effectively without doing a thing like this.i viewd it and rightly so a slap in the face for all competitors that particpated in all olympics ..a slap in the face to all that worked so hard and there dreams of either wining a metal or just making it there fullfilled..he brought politics where it didnt belong.yes the olympics indirectly are not free of poilitics but its intent is for a gathering of nations with differences to partcipate in a fashion of peace etc etc..and to furture add insult to injury the olympics later gave him another medal to replace the one he threw without any decent reguard in the river..then the big mystery who will light the olympic tourch..it was ali .again sorry..i much rather of seen one relative of jim thrope and jesse owens jointly light that tourch..2.ali went overboard in attacking people and had no sensitivity or respect for folks feelings.joe frazier is a perfect example.joe louis was another..willie besminoff said it best.he was a journeyman HW at best that a few times cracked the top ten as number 10..ali kept calling him a bum..willie was genuinly hurt by this and said so..look he said i give my all try my best train hard do all i can in the ring.yes im not as talented as ali or several other HW fighters but my heart and dedication not talent is equal to theres..it hurts me to say im a bum..im not.im a fighter..when ali was told what willie said ali said hes a bum.uncalled for fucking arragance and hurtfull insults..now folks will rush to alis aide and say ali did no wrong.he sure did especialy with willie..

Dmar, as far as the trash talking is concerned, I agree with you 100 percent. It’s been a bad influence on other athletes as well. A man who chases a dream that requires him to appear half naked in front of thousands if not millions of people and take on the might of another man can never be called a bum.

Please understand that I’m looking at this from Ali’s point of view in order to understand the reasoning behind it. This is no justification of anything.

(a)Trash Talk : Ali began trash talking after appearing on a show with the famous wrestler, Gorgeous George. George came along during the time of a little invention known as television. It was George who was the catalyst for this new invention. In the beginning, for the most part, people turned on their televisions to watch George and professional wrestling. As George was the big dog, other shows began to appear behind his fame and take off.

A young Olympian named Cassius Clay once appeared on a show with George and was completely and utterly upstaged. While Ali, then Clay, tried to get in some words about his recent Olympic victory, George was interrupting the whole time with quotes like, “If my opponent messes up a curl on my beautiful head, I’ll tear him limb from limb.” It was here that Ali decided he would never be upstaged again and stole George’s act.

That said, the mistake Ali made was the following: George was acting in a sport that, while being as physically demanding as anything I’ve seen, is a complete set up. Fake. These wrestlers don’t really dislike each other. For Ali to carry this style of talking in boxing was a great idea, however he didn’t consider that George wasn’t actually insulting anyone. Ali was. The competition he engaged in was authentic.

Was he (Ali) insensitive, or was he bringing life to a sport that was dead at the time with a style he knew would generate interest? I think it’s a little bit of both. Just consider that trash talking became a part of Ali’s persona and as time went on, it was just about impossible for him to drop it. As stated above, the insults were taken literally, which was unfortunate. Ali’s imitation of a “bad guy” in professional wrestling was seen by humorous as some, obnoxious and offensive by others. In the end, was he pretending? I think so. There were good relationships between Ali and other boxers, including Ken Norton and Jerry Quarry. The verbal tirade aimed at Joe Frazier was an outrage and I have never suggested anything else.

(a)Throwing the medal in the river: Ali claimed that he tried to eat at a segregated restaurant in “Louisville, Kentucky” and was told “We don’t serve Negras here.” Ali took out his gold medal and replied, “That’s ok, cause I don’t eat em either.” There ‘s a whole other part to this story that’s too long for me to write at this time, however he threw the medal in the river because he felt like it was a worthless trinket. It couldn’t even get him a meal at a restaurant. I’ve never been refused service or been asked to enter the rear entrance of an establishment based on skin color. Therefore, I won’t judge him. I have no argument with those who choose to condemn this act (Throwing the medal in the river), however just make sure you’ve walked in similar shoes. I can assure you that I have not. (Note: I think the story is true. Ali worked hard for that medal and was as very proud to come back home with it, as anyone would've been. There had to be a reason the medal was thrown in the river and I think the above explanation was it.)

GrantZilla wrote:Powerpunch, you are dead wrong. Pac is an Icon in Asian culture. And there are a lot more Asians in the world than anybody else. They make up 60% of the population
http://www.mpboxing.com/blog/2011/01/14/asias-most-popular-athletes/
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/273546

Who do think is the most popular athlete in the world right now. What, Kobe? Lebron? No, it's Cristiano Ronaldo.

he's an icon in the Phillipines.
Ali's legacy is far greater IMO. Ali is a legend. the greatest. so what if he might have said a few things to hurt other fighter's feelings. he stood up and battled the oppression of the black man in the United States whilst being the heavyweight champion of the World. Ali really was a champ in every aspect. Ali's legend is far more romantic than Manny Pacquiao's. Manny Pacquiao is an icon in the Phillipines, not necessarily in China or India though, each nation of which consists of 1 billion people which makes up the vast majority of Asia's population. Ali's legend is just way more impressive IMO.

slightly off topic but..... yesterday was the Cricket World Cup semi-final between Pakistan and India. over 1 billion people watched that match. quite an astronomical figure would you not agree?

dbudge wrote:

GrantZilla wrote:Powerpunch, you are dead wrong. Pac is an Icon in Asian culture. And there are a lot more Asians in the world than anybody else. They make up 60% of the population
http://www.mpboxing.com/blog/2011/01/14/asias-most-popular-athletes/
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/273546

Who do think is the most popular athlete in the world right now. What, Kobe? Lebron? No, it's Cristiano Ronaldo.

he's an icon in the Phillipines.
Ali's legacy is far greater IMO. Ali is a legend. the greatest. so what if he might have said a few things to hurt other fighter's feelings. he stood up and battled the oppression of the black man in the United States whilst being the heavyweight champion of the World. Ali really was a champ in every aspect. Ali's legend is far more romantic than Manny Pacquiao's. Manny Pacquiao is an icon in the Phillipines, not necessarily in China or India though, each nation of which consists of 1 billion people which makes up the vast majority of Asia's population. Ali's legend is just way more impressive IMO.

slightly off topic but..... yesterday was the Cricket World Cup semi-final between Pakistan and India. over 1 billion people watched that match. quite an astronomical figure would you not agree?

Dbudge, where can I see these games?

Frank wrote:

dbudge wrote:

GrantZilla wrote:Powerpunch, you are dead wrong. Pac is an Icon in Asian culture. And there are a lot more Asians in the world than anybody else. They make up 60% of the population
http://www.mpboxing.com/blog/2011/01/14/asias-most-popular-athletes/
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/273546

Who do think is the most popular athlete in the world right now. What, Kobe? Lebron? No, it's Cristiano Ronaldo.

he's an icon in the Phillipines.
Ali's legacy is far greater IMO. Ali is a legend. the greatest. so what if he might have said a few things to hurt other fighter's feelings. he stood up and battled the oppression of the black man in the United States whilst being the heavyweight champion of the World. Ali really was a champ in every aspect. Ali's legend is far more romantic than Manny Pacquiao's. Manny Pacquiao is an icon in the Phillipines, not necessarily in China or India though, each nation of which consists of 1 billion people which makes up the vast majority of Asia's population. Ali's legend is just way more impressive IMO.

slightly off topic but..... yesterday was the Cricket World Cup semi-final between Pakistan and India. over 1 billion people watched that match. quite an astronomical figure would you not agree?

Dbudge, where can I see these games?

what do you mean? the cricket??

dbudge wrote:

GrantZilla wrote:Powerpunch, you are dead wrong. Pac is an Icon in Asian culture. And there are a lot more Asians in the world than anybody else. They make up 60% of the population
http://www.mpboxing.com/blog/2011/01/14/asias-most-popular-athletes/
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/273546

Who do think is the most popular athlete in the world right now. What, Kobe? Lebron? No, it's Cristiano Ronaldo.

he's an icon in the Phillipines.
Ali's legacy is far greater IMO. Ali is a legend. the greatest. so what if he might have said a few things to hurt other fighter's feelings. he stood up and battled the oppression of the black man in the United States whilst being the heavyweight champion of the World. Ali really was a champ in every aspect. Ali's legend is far more romantic than Manny Pacquiao's. Manny Pacquiao is an icon in the Phillipines, not necessarily in China or India though, each nation of which consists of 1 billion people which makes up the vast majority of Asia's population. Ali's legend is just way more impressive IMO.

slightly off topic but..... yesterday was the Cricket World Cup semi-final between Pakistan and India. over 1 billion people watched that match. quite an astronomical figure would you not agree?

I just posted a link showing PAc is huge in Asia period, not just the Phillipines. He was on the cover of Asian version of Time Magazine for christ sake. Asia makes up 60% of the population.

China becoming more and more into boxing, especialy since there Olympic team won gold in boxing for the first time in the last Olympics. And Pac popularity there is pretty big.

Fact is, the most popular athletes worldwide, most Americans wouldn't even know. Like Ronaldo. Before that Beckham. Shit, if anyone in US knew who Beckham was, they knew him only as the guy married to Posh Spice

frank nice post trying to explain stuff.debudge there is more then just a fine line of a so called trash talk for self promotion and genuinly hurting a persons feelings deep inside.when ali found out and was told besminoff was deeply hurt ali continued and said hes a bum..he could of said i didnt mean or realize i was hurting his feelings.that truly was not my intent.ali did not.he showed insensitivity ..at that moment ali was a piece of shit and not a man or a human.for one to have claimed to be a victom of predudice he should more then most people understood.he did not.and this act and yes some times it was an act and other times it was not..to condone that as a so what tells me a little about you.
this isnt about ohh alis a great fighter..maybe his whole other stick then was just an act..he was wrong and failed to1.admit it and 2.was totaly insensitive..theres a differnce betrween a trash talk act for self promotion and genuine dignity when the moment called for it..he flunked the latter part.thats one of the things i dislike about him.

dmar5143 wrote:frank nice post trying to explain stuff.debudge there is more then just a fine line of a so called trash talk for self promotion and genuinly hurting a persons feelings deep inside.when ali found out and was told besminoff was deeply hurt ali continued and said hes a bum..he could of said i didnt mean or realize i was hurting his feelings.that truly was not my intent.ali did not.he showed insensitivity ..at that moment ali was a piece of shit and not a man or a human.for one to have claimed to be a victom of predudice he should more then most people understood.he did not.and this act and yes some times it was an act and other times it was not..to condone that as a so what tells me a little about you.
this isnt about ohh alis a great fighter..maybe his whole other stick then was just an act..he was wrong and failed to1.admit it and 2.was totaly insensitive..theres a differnce betrween a trash talk act for self promotion and genuine dignity when the moment called for it..he flunked the latter part.thats one of the things i dislike about him.

Dmar, I've done my best job trying to explain Ali, but you're right. Ali was a big kid and never knew when enough was enough. That was extremely obnoxious and annoying to many people. I'm a big fan of his, but sometimes, he never knew when to shut the fuck up. It is justified that he be judged for this character flaw. I knew a guy like that and wanted to beat the shit out of him everytime I saw him. That's no joke.

On the other hand, Ali made it easy for some of us to ignore his shortcomings with his sense of humor and his fighting excellence...but you're right. No problem with this post at all. However, I think even you will admit that it's easier for a kid to like a guy like this. LOL When I was growing up, I saw him as a super hero, a sort of cartoon character.