ESPN article about boxing and football

When asked what has happened to the American heavyweight, boxing historian Bert Sugar typically offers the same response.



"The two best American heavyweights today are named Ray Lewis and Brian Urlacher," Sugar has often said. "Unfortunately, they are both in the NFL."



It's hard to argue with Sugar's theory that gifted, 250-pound-plus American athletes are usually playing football. But if labor issues that threaten the 2011 NFL season continue, a new brand of American heavyweights may quickly arrive on the scene.



Baltimore Ravens safety Tom Zbikowski, who won his lone professional fight as a heavyweight in 2006, announced he will fight as a cruiserweight on the March 12 Showtime PPV card if no deal is reached for a new collective bargaining agreement.



[+] EnlargeMark Cunningham/Detroit Lions/Getty Images
Would the average heavyweight want to step in the ring with this man? Some respected voices believe Ray Edwards has a future in boxing -- if he wants it.

And Minnesota Vikings defensive end Ray Edwards has the same intentions in mind. Unlike Zbikowski, who took up boxing at age 9 and has a 75-15 amateur record, Edwards has been training for only four years, getting more serious in just the last two as the possibility of a lockout increased.



But with his future in Minnesota uncertain without a contract, Edwards, 26, is ready to move full-speed ahead into boxing, with his sights set on a potential April debut. Whatever the 6-foot-5, 260-pound Edwards lacks in experience, he makes up for in size, speed and endurance.



"A lot of football players, like Ed 'Too Tall' Jones, have tried to cross over -- and they've all gotten knocked out," said Jeff Warner, a former heavyweight boxer and pro wrestler who serves as Edwards' trainer, manager, pastor and father figure. "Ray will be the first to come from pro football as a starter and destroy the heavyweight division. Ray is a phenom. He's a modern-day Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson combined. He's the greatest conditioned heavyweight ever and he'll knock out any fighter in the world. No one looks like Ray, no one moves like Ray and no one works like Ray."



It's possible that the enthusiastic Warner -- a sought-after motivational speaker who tears phone books in half and says he tripled the world brick-breaking record -- is tip-toeing the lines of hyperbole. But Edwards also has received a glowing endorsement from Hall of Fame trainer Emanuel Steward, who worked him out for two weeks last summer at Steward's legendary Kronk Gym in Detroit.



"I think it's very, very realistic for him to have an impact in the heavyweight division," Steward said. "Ray is a natural boxer in terms of rhythm and coordination. But it's his speed that surprised me because he is such an extremely big guy. I didn't think a guy could be that big and that fast. I'm training with a lot of heavyweights now, and having worked with primarily all of the heavyweight champions of the last 15 years -- like Lennox Lewis, [Evander] Holyfield and the Klitschkos -- I was very surprised at how quickly Ray caught on to things. Of all these athletes from football and basketball, he is the best that I have ever worked with, almost what you would say is a natural."



The Vikings' fourth-round pick out of Purdue in 2006, Edwards had a breakout season in 2009 (8.5 sacks) working opposite All-Pro defensive end Jared Allen. He went on to sign a one-year, $2.52 million tender in June after holding out of minicamp, finishing with eight sacks and 37 tackles in 2010.



With an uncertain NFL future, Edwards says he is willing to commit to boxing as long as he needs to in order to make money for himself and his family. But if success in the ring comes quickly, Edwards knows he could be headed toward an important decision soon.



[+] EnlargeAlexander Hassenstein/Bongarts/Getty Images
Renowned trainer Emanuel Steward says Ray Edwards is "a natural" in the ring, and is most impressed by Edwards' speed.

"Right now, it all depends on where I am at in my career," said Edwards, who dabbles in modeling and owns his own clothing line called True Ink. "If the lockout goes to August and I'm moving up in the ring, then different things can happen. There is a lot of money in boxing, just as there is in football. It becomes a numbers game after that."



Either way, Edwards believes he can make an immediate impact.



"My goal is to be a world champion and bring heavyweight boxing back to the United States because it's evident how much it's missed," Edwards said. "There's a lot of guys out there that are tough, but I don't see them putting in the work and dedication that I'm bringing to the table. The way guys used to look back in the day, with Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier, they were all put together. Now, most of these guys are just heavy. With my stamina, conditioning and my mental work and discipline, I'm going to bring excitement and will bring the championships back home."



Warner said he has helped Edwards improve his strength and explosiveness on the football field, while guiding him to become a better man off of it. He envisions a best-of-both-worlds scenario for Edwards' future.



"I told him that he is going to play football and be a world champion," said Warner, best known as a pro wrestler with WCW in the 1990s under the names J.W. Storm and Max Muscle. "Bo Jackson played [two sports] and did it very well. We are going to take it to a whole new level. I think the NFL is smart enough to embrace this. He would bring so much world renown to football that has never been done before."



Steward, the trainer of heavyweight champion Wladimir Klitschko, admits the excitement and pay-per-view numbers would be through the roof if a mainstream athlete, like Edwards, achieved success inside the ring. But he is realistic of the distance traveled on the road from prospect to contender.



"I guess it's easy to say right now, with the division being the worst it's ever been in history, but there's a difference between having talent and doing it in the ring," Steward said. "The excitement of the crowd in a boxing ring is different than running out onto a football field. You are all by yourself and there are so many other factors.

"To be effective in anything in life, you have to have attained a certain degree of confidence. So I would have Ray fighting very often, like once a month, to give him experience and get him comfortable fighting in any environment. With the proper training and regular fights, I would say in about 10 months he could be a serious threat to any middle-of-the-road or Class B heavyweight. Taking away guys like the Klitschkos and others who have Olympic gold medal experience, Ray would be a tough match for any heavyweight outside of the top 12 in the world."

Just because a guy is big and gifted doesnt mean he can throw a punch or have the stamina to last 12 rds. Thats why i pay no mind when ppl say that the NBA and NFL are stealing all the heavyweights from Boxing.

SlickMoney wrote:Just because a guy is big and gifted doesnt mean he can throw a punch or have the stamina to last 12 rds. Thats why i pay no mind when ppl say that the NBA and NFL are stealing all the heavyweights from Boxing.

+1 finally someone across the water who doesn't believe in that excuse.

All of the American Professional sports take away from potential boxing stars. Team sports with multi year contracts is way more appealing than getting your head bashed in. Finding a boxing gym is harder now than it ever was. Now, if a pro athlete tries to box after a different career, the degree of difficulty is astronomical. Boxing is an acquired talent, one that takes years of honing during someones "developing" years. It becomes ingrained in the athlete. I doubt anybody could be a success if they didn't start early.

Someone once mentioned Nate Robinson (NBA) and how he would do in boxing. I could see him being a better version of Berto.

shdavistx wrote:Someone once mentioned Nate Robinson (NBA) and how he would do in boxing. I could see him being a better version of Berto.

Yeah...I saw that at ESPN....Nate would have been a Middle or Super Middleweight, but he possesses all the skills necessary to be a good fighter.

Interesting stuff. One thing I really don't agree with the notion that you can have sucess at two sports like Bo Jackson did if one of those sports is boxing. To me, you've gotta be 100% focused on the ring to make it.

I still think if guys like this had taken to boxing at an early age there probably would be way more American heavyweights. You simply can't compete with what football offers the outstanding, big young man - college scholarships, big money rookie deals without proving a thing, endorsement opportunities, etc. So much more certainty than you get from boxing.

I am pumped to see Tommy Z get back in the ring, he's a tough dude and being a huge Notre Dame fan I want to see him do well.

bottom line most fighters are exposed to boxing at a very early age.anywhere from 9 to 13 years old.these football players were not huge at that time nor were scholorships or big money etc etc were offered to them at that time.as a youth a large majority of them had no interest in the sport.nor does playling colledge football or basketball guarentee a opening in the pros for big money and all these endorsements.
perhaps a few had interest in the sport but chose otherwise..a tiny few.this is a mythical agrument i dont buy that the nfl baseball football stoled all our fighters not just HWS..its wishfull thinking to say this is a reason why boxing has a talent depreciation..its not.the desire and interest wasnt there in the first place.
stewart gives 2 praises to that guy.one hes this or that the other saying EVEN though the HW division is the worst in history after a year and a dozen fights this guy can compete with B type fighters.the top 12 he implies will clean his clock.
yes the guy states hes in awsome condition..yep for football.boxing is different.no time outs.no resting when the offense is playing.no one releaves you.and if you think a linebacker hits hard wait untill wlad vitali or even haye smash your face.sorry i agree with slick and ali.i dont buy that talk.

Ali wrote:

SlickMoney wrote:Just because a guy is big and gifted doesnt mean he can throw a punch or have the stamina to last 12 rds. Thats why i pay no mind when ppl say that the NBA and NFL are stealing all the heavyweights from Boxing.

+1 finally someone across the water who doesn't believe in that excuse.

You guys are crazy if you dont think that the NBA and NFL are not taking away our HW's.

Soonermark890 wrote:

Ali wrote:

SlickMoney wrote:Just because a guy is big and gifted doesnt mean he can throw a punch or have the stamina to last 12 rds. Thats why i pay no mind when ppl say that the NBA and NFL are stealing all the heavyweights from Boxing.

+1 finally someone across the water who doesn't believe in that excuse.

You guys are crazy if you dont think that the NBA and NFL are not taking away our HW's.

I'm not so sure about that Sooner, it seems like there would still be plenty of black athletes available for pro boxing. Whether it's disinterest among blacks, or some other reason, i'm not buying that NBA and NFL are taking away all our black HW's.

I believe the one attribute we cannot guarantee NFL or especially NBA players have is a chin. The size/speed combination these other athletes have is clearly enough for boxing. They would have to train for this type of stamina but NBA players have tons of endurance too. I think the ability to throw a punch is developed from learning the proper technique which these athletes would most likely be able to pick up with training. With that said, it will take many years until any of these guys can be truly relevant.

dmar5143 wrote:bottom line most fighters are exposed to boxing at a very early age.anywhere from 9 to 13 years old.these football players were not huge at that time nor were scholorships or big money etc etc were offered to them at that time.as a youth a large majority of them had no interest in the sport.nor does playling colledge football or basketball guarentee a opening in the pros for big money and all these endorsements.
perhaps a few had interest in the sport but chose otherwise..a tiny few.this is a mythical agrument i dont buy that the nfl baseball football stoled all our fighters not just HWS..its wishfull thinking to say this is a reason why boxing has a talent depreciation..its not.the desire and interest wasnt there in the first place.
stewart gives 2 praises to that guy.one hes this or that the other saying EVEN though the HW division is the worst in history after a year and a dozen fights this guy can compete with B type fighters.the top 12 he implies will clean his clock.
yes the guy states hes in awsome condition..yep for football.boxing is different.no time outs.no resting when the offense is playing.no one releaves you.and if you think a linebacker hits hard wait untill wlad vitali or even haye smash your face.sorry i agree with slick and ali.i dont buy that talk.

The reason they are interested in the other sports is because they are readily available. To become a boxer, a kid has to go to a specific place, a boxing gym, which in the US, always seem to be in the worst parts of bad towns. There are a multitude of Junior sports programs much easier to get in to than boxing. Now, what you choose to believe is your choice, but to deny that the top level athletes, the guys that excel in sport, are playing other sports instead of learning to box at a young age, then you are fooling yourself.

UBeeg9cats wrote:I believe the one attribute we cannot guarantee NFL or especially NBA players have is a chin. The size/speed combination these other athletes have is clearly enough for boxing. They would have to train for this type of stamina but NBA players have tons of endurance too. I think the ability to throw a punch is developed from learning the proper technique which these athletes would most likely be able to pick up with training. With that said, it will take many years until any of these guys can be truly relevant.

I think the point is being missed here. it's not about NBA or NFL players having the ability to box. It's about these terrific athletes that could have become boxers if they had started young instead of concentrating on the other sports. Oh, by the way...which former Hwt Champ also played pro basketball?

flapanther2001 wrote:The reason they are interested in the other sports is because they are readily available. To become a boxer, a kid has to go to a specific place, a boxing gym, which in the US, always seem to be in the worst parts of bad towns. There are a multitude of Junior sports programs much easier to get in to than boxing. Now, what you choose to believe is your choice, but to deny that the top level athletes, the guys that excel in sport, are playing other sports instead of learning to box at a young age, then you are fooling yourself.

I posted this article a couple weeks ago

Antonio, 14, is among the hundreds of Toledo youths who have discovered boxing this year after the public school system, facing a $39 million deficit, cut its athletics budget. It is a scenario that is being played out across the country, as high unemployment, falling home values and declining tax revenues continue to batter school finances.

In Southern California, “boxing actually is growing here because pretty much all the districts in our area have cut back on sports,” said Connie Cervantes, director of the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Police Athletic League, which in recent years has seen an eightfold increase in the size of its boxing program

The cuts to the athletic programs in Toledo were among the most severe in the nation. At the beginning of the school year, the district disbanded all sports teams for middle school students and high school freshmen. It also cut high school cross-country, wrestling, golf and boys’ tennis teams, along with all intramural activities, including cheerleading and dance teams.

Some parents said they did not have many alternatives when the sports teams were eliminated. They could send their children to boxing clubs and live with the inevitable bruised foreheads and bloodied lips. Or they could leave them alone after school in neighborhoods that are often troubled by gangs and crime.

After Toledo’s schools announced the cuts, the city’s older boxing gyms quickly filled to capacity. Three new gyms have opened in the last year, and they are now full, too. Until last year, about 40 people used to attend the fight nights featuring boxers from different gyms. The latest bouts attracted 400 fans

Interest in youth boxing is growing fast, said Terrel Harrison, director of the Police Athletic League in Oxnard. The city has nine boxing gyms, all of which are full. It could open another five, “and we still wouldn’t have enough space for all the kids,” he said. “Since they’re cutting back on these different school programs, young kids are turning to boxing because it’s an extremely inexpensive sport.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/27/us/27boxing.html?_r=1

The NFL argument is a good one for the lack of credible heavyweights in our sport, though I never bought into it.

1. Study the HW division and you'll see that it's gone through bleak periods before. Anyone ever hear of a guy named "Primo Canero?"

2. When has a football player ever successfully crossed over to boxing? I watched a couple of celebrity ball players turn into boxers. With all due respect, it was embarrassing. See Mark Gastino and Too Tall Jones. The only fighter I know with a past on the gridiron was "Ken Norton." Of course, there may've been a few more but I've never heard of them.

3. From what I know, being a good professional boxer requires a religious type of dedication. If a man decided to dedicate himself to the sweet science, he would rarely have time to master another sport.

4. Boxing is MUCH more difficult to engage in than football. There are a bunch of guys who are very effective at every position in the NFL. Ever notice what happens when an especially talented HW enters that division? It's not odd to see him dominate everyone. Check out the number of HW boxers who have competed throughout history vs. the HW boxers who were able to compete with world class HWs. This actually goes for all the divisions. In the 80s, the average number of men professionally licensed to fight was 50,000. Out of those, how many were able to compete against men like Hagler, Hearns or even lesser talented champions like Davey Moore or Ayub Kalule? The answer is very few.

5. The preparation for Football is very different from that of boxing. I don't know how anyone could ever discover what ball players would make good fighters. The two sports are very different. Everyone knows it takes more than size to be a HW champion. Sure, these guys (NFL players) are good in bar room brawls, but the ring is a totally different discipline. It sounds good to say that our HW champs are playing in the NFL, but what is this based on? Absolutely nothing. Actually, it's based on something that came off the top of Larry Merchant's head after he gulped down a few.

6. This is just my opinion, but my experience has shown me that playing a great game of football is no sign that a guy can become a seasoned professional fighter, or vice versa. My take is that there are guys playing football who would make great boxers, however they're probably not talented enough to excel in football as well. Most likely, you wouldn't see them in the NFL. If you did, you'd probably never hear about them.

7. Anyone ever hear of the fight between Shaq and Oscar D.? Shaq was able to impress a lot of people just by surviving. Ever see the size difference between the two? Also, if any giant was picked to be a great boxer under the Merchant philosophy, wouldn't it be O'Neal? Who's a more coordinated big man than him? Don't kid yourself. Oscar was going easy on him.

8. Why are there very few gifted HWs in the division at this time? Answer? Who the fuck knows? There's probably no reason other than the law of averages. All I can say is, since the HW division is lacking in talent now, it's probably a sign that a great era is on it's way in that division. That just seems to be the way it goes. At least, that's the way HW boxing history has worked out so far. My take. (Note: I'm not debating the article Grant presented. I think it's rather accurate. I think that if there are more big guys entering the gym, there will obviously be more of a chance of finding an exceptionally talented HW. Again, this is the law of averages. It doesn't suggest these very talented HWs would've ever been able to compete in the NFL. )

frank nice post..i saw that oscar-shaq thing and yes shaq was not doing well dispite being trained for that fight..did you notice how oliver mccall sparing with shaq looked like robinson.
if wilt and ali every did fight well it would of looked like that.a mismatch of mismatches..
ever see ali with a basketrball.i did.he looked like obama throwing a baseball..like shit.

Good post Frank. I don't think NFL or NBA are neccissarly stealing American HWs.

The real cause is the fact boxing being a nich sport and not available for kids to watch in the US. Ali got into boxing because he watched and idolized SRR. SRL got into boxing because he grew up and idolized Ali. Kids today are growing up and watching Kobe or whoever.

Add on stigma boxing has with parents. Them not wanting to have their kids box and end up like Ali.

Then add on the joke AM "boxing" which not even real boxing. And no wonder why most HWs today lack the technical skills of older HWs. How can they when all they're rought in AM boxing at a young age is to throw a bunch slaps and when get a lead, run like a girl for the rest of the fight. Where body shots, ring generalship, in-fighting, ect are not taught.

GrantZilla wrote:Good post Frank. I don't think NFL or NBA are neccissarly stealing American HWs.

The real cause is the fact boxing being a nich sport and not available for kids to watch in the US. Ali got into boxing because he watched and idolized SRR. SRL got into boxing because he grew up and idolized Ali. Kids today are growing up and watching Kobe or whoever.

Add on stigma boxing has with parents. Them not wanting to have their kids box and end up like Ali.

Then add on the joke AM "boxing" which not even real boxing. And no wonder why most HWs today lack the technical skills of older HWs. How can they when all they're rought in AM boxing at a young age is to throw a bunch slaps and when get a lead, run like a girl for the rest of the fight. Where body shots, ring generalship, in-fighting, ect are not taught......

....yep very good points grant

Here's hoping World Series of Boxing fixes the joke that is the AM series. I've been watching my it, and it's just like pro fighting. Kind of fights you'd see pros starting at on FNF in.

Add on, boxing needs more exposure. Two most recognizable boxers in the US is a little ugly Filipino that barely speaks English and Money Mayweather. Not exactly type of guys for little kids in the US to relate and inspire them to get into a boxing gym.

There may not be a direct link between the growth of the NBA and NFL and fewer US heavies; but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to put together why every athletic kid who shows potential to be over 6' and 200 lbs. would focus on sports that are exponentially more popular than boxing in the US.

Ok I need to weigh in on this one. I am a big guy who has been in love with this sport since I was a little kid. The reason I say this is for 3 reasons.

1. Size Matters: As a big guy (6'4 225lbs) I was interested in Basketball and because of my size. It tends to be useful in a sport like that.

2. Recruitment: If you are a big guy the coaches in all the schools are recruiting you to play sports like basketball and football were size can mean the world. Is there anyone out there in the schools trying to get you to box? No I have never been given a flyer or anything for boxing.

3. Difficulty: Now think about this. If you are a big kid and someone tells you that you can choose to play school sports for free like basketball and football or you can pay to do a sport that is a lot harder and you have to get punched in the face. This to me seems like a pretty easy choice.

The thing you guys are forgetting is that to be a great boxer you need to be an athlete. Are there tough guys who can get by? Sure but they are the exception that proves the rule. So back to my point, If you take all the big athletes away from the sport the sport will suffer. I know you also need a chin to be able to box but the more athletes that are competing the better the sport is. That is why our American HW's suck. There are less guys boxing in the HW division today because they are being stolen to play other sports.

sooner your number 3 proves a point.you may of loved boxing but not interested in getting punched in the facetherefore being a fighter was out..again how many kids at age 9 or 10 or so when they get started in boxing are 6 foot 4 225 pounds.to play basketball you got to buy at least sneakers and a basketball.how much costly is that over a pair of boxing gloves..or baseball a glove a ball and a bat.if your from a small town chances are boxing has nothing to start with.in bigger cities there are PALS police athletic leagues that use to sponsor boxing.the old boys club they may not exist anymore maybe.interest desire fasination with the sport plus role models are good reasons young ones went into boxing or any other sport.
to be recrited as you say is maybe a average age of 16 maybe 15 by your varsiety or jv coach.by that age fighters have already 40to 75 150 amatuer fights under there belt.your a high school track and basketball coach.how many 9 or 10 11 year olds are you looking at to recruit to your school.by thaty age oscar mosley and many others had amatuer fights under there belt.fighters are born not made like basketball a easy game to learn and play and excell at.
just about every bio i ever read on a fighter they start of as tough kids scrappers etc etc.you bet toughness is a major ingrediate for a fighter..athletisim can be developed like that basketball etc etc in boxing.hard training and developement over years starting with youth.
your point number 3 says no matter how much you loved boxing as a kid the toughness wasnt there.grant made a point on role models.you got jordan kobe lebon etc etc.exposure to them or a jeter arod pulios or manning farve etc etc is on constant tv..boxing had the joe louis marcianos robinsons alis durans and were exposed to the kids.today its not.
to be a fighter takes something special in the heart thats differnt then basketball baseball football golf etc etc.
you still today have ymcas where you can hit a bag put on gloves etc etc.even in small city usa.boxing and fighters start with a special kind of toughness..dont overlook that please.and it starts with youth that are not at ages 9-10-11-12 being recruited by no one from other sports.

I'm a big guy as well. And I started AM boxing when I was about 9 years old. I then did Pop Warner football as well, and high school football.

I can tell you, I got more hurt playing football then I ever did AM boxing. Sure, I'd get a bloody lip and some bruises in boxing. Minor compared to broken ankle, sprained fingers, hurt back, concussion, and eventually a shattered elbow that pretty much ended my sporting life in that department.

More kids get killed in high school football in a couple years then the entire history of AM boxing.

Now, I got into AM boxing because I watched my favorite boxers on regular TV. And so I wanted to go box.

Today, kids don't get that kind of exposure to fighters. Kids can't watch Pac-Man or MAyweather fight on regular TV. Unless want to get a job at 9 years old to pay for 60 dollar PPV.

Dmar and Grant. I agree with you guys completely. Exposure to the sport is a huge issue. I dont live in a small town. I live just outside Oklahoma City and I dont know even today of where one boxing gym is. Thats so sad to be honest.

Oh and BTW I know this is messed up but us coaches start talking to kids when they are in 5th and 6th grade about our sports. I have been talking to a few kids that I knew about for a couple of years and now they are out for my track team as throwers. They are in 7th grade now. So our recruiting process starts early.

What we need to fix this problem is local gyms need to get their asses to the schools and recruit. Set up programs with the school counselors to help the troubled kids.

Sooner, from article I posted, because budget cutting and schools cutting sport's programs, lots of kids are going into boxing gyms. Parents rather them do that then get into gangs. Gyms that use to not have many members are now packed, and a lot more gyms opening up in areas facing major sport's budget cutting.

And I will say, as mentioned earlier, HW division has always had down periods. There were no good HWs for Dempsey to fight when he became Champ, and why just sat on his title. He made more money doing exhibitions and appearances then against any opponents at that time.

30s HW scene was a joke, with many similarties to todays HWs. Joe Louis after beating the top HWs had nobody to fight, hence Bum of the Month club.

I was reading a Flash Back article in The Ring posted after WWII, where author was asking where are all new HWs that were suppose to come out of the war. Article was stating how HW division was still weak.

Rocky Marcanio was in a weak HW period. His best opponents were guys past their prime and smaller guys. HWs during Patterson and Liston time were not stacked, nor were they when Ali first came Champ.

Late 60s-70s aka Golden Age HWs, was only time where division was fully stacked with talent.

And these were all periods when NBA and NFL were not dominate like they are now. They were just starting to become desegrigated, and majority of players were still white.

Boxing was also still a mainstream sport, and on network TV. So why were HWs bad during the 80s? These were HWs that grew up on the Golden Age of HWs. Ali-Frazier, ect.

My opinion is, getting big men that can actualy fight and be coordinated boxers is more rare then finding big men that can tackle or throw a basetball into a hoop.