Our Tax code

Ok maybe I see this all as a simple solution but what the hell is wrong with a flat tax? Also why the hell does the conservative base hate the idea of taxing the rich more? They are not rich. Most conservatives are poor to middle class. I dont get it. Why the hell do they support the rich? Maybe I am wrong but I tend to vote for my interest not some billionaire's. At the same time I cant stand the spending by the dems. Fuck both parties have no fucking clue do they?

simply a flat tax a one size fits all is a regressive tax that hurts the most folks and benefits the rich.generalites in your post sooner is just that.no disrespect but its like a 30 second political commercial that attempts to digest and simplify a complex issue.
i cant see why there isnt a simplier code that all talk about.for personal income eliminate all loopholes except chairitable contributions and exteme medical expenses.yes the rich do donate a lot.after a certain income depending on family size the tax code sets in.this protects the working poor.tax levels then of 28 percent graduate down to 25 percent 22 18 15 12 then finaly 10 percent.raise the capitol gains tax to 18 percent which is a low tax in reality on folks who makes money in lieu of regular work.like romney for example.this will increase revinew something republicans dont want lol.how are you going to start paying off the national debt if you dont increase revinew cut some spending and get back to full employment which is a unenployment rate at 5 percent or less.
on the corporate level the republicans claim the 35 percent tax is to much.we are the worlds highest.total bullshit.in actual tax paid its not 35 percent and we rank 18 th in corparate tax in nations that are not third world.again eliminate most loopholes and cut the rate to 27 percent as the max.that will raise more revinews .it will stop companies big ones from paying zero tax like g.e. and others who have a minus tax rate which means they get a tax credit dispite paying no tax and making huge profits.untill stuff like this is done and folks get serious then nothing will stop the increase of the national deebt.im tired of them talking about the debt but give soluytions like the republicans give that actualy make things worse..mr ryan you listening.STFU and lets get real.

Actually Dmar I agree with your entire post. We need a solution and fast. I dont know if I am the only one who sees our country going the way of past great societies but right I think we are on the verge of violence. The question is how long will people put up with it? Eventually you have to have a redistribution of the wealth in this country. Hell our country was founded on the ideas of John Locke (social contract). I dont know how close the government is to breaking the social contract but its not good right now.

Its amazing when I am teaching my classes about the Romans, then we go over other great societies that fell, Then we just got past the French Revolution and in every case the kids (not me) keep finding major similarities to their decline and what is going on right now in this country.

Dmar do me a favor and explain how a flat tax would not work? I am talking about a flat tax on basic income not anything else.

sooner there are a lot of things that can work in the short run.the one i suggested works for centuries.theres a thing called fairness that is a must for any tax overhaul.example lets eliminate all personal income tax and go to a flat national sales tax of 20 percent.on paper it works theoreticaly but in reality it crushes a huge majority of people except the affluent.in the long run it destroys what and who makes this economy tick.regular folks to middle middle class folks.look the middle class as well as other classes break down in 3 parts.lower middle class middle middle class and upper middle class.a fair tax in incruments hurts no one.its fair extremly fair.a flat tax hurts folks that makes the economy run.its benfits the weathy only and perhaps the upper middle class..sooner your a teacher and lets say for the sake of argument you make 35000 a year.lets have a 20 percent flat tax.thats 7000 your share on top of sales tax state income tax.does that hurt you and your family and your abilty to buy whats needed.yep you bet it does.dont let them fool you with there nice sounding stuff like a flat tax.one size fits all.everyone will be happy.it solves our problems..in reality it does the opposite.its not fair its presented to us as yep its fair.whos it hurt who does it benefit.the idea i outlined in platoes after a certain income depending on family size is extremly fair.all pay there fair share and no one gets hurt.not even the wealthy..and its simplified where anyone can do there own taxes and file.why do you live in a modest home but wealthy folks have several homes that some exceed 15-25000 square feet of living area.because they can afford it and you will never afford it.same with the tax code.fairness means affordabilty.one flat tax eliminates that for tons of folks that make the economy tick.thats why it wont work.

A little historical background.

Top marginal rate:
1950: 91%.

That is obscenely high.
1964-77%. Still obscenely high.

Was around 70% till early 1980s.

Down to 50% till 1986.

Then lowered to 28% and then up to 31% through 1992.

The obscene top marginal rate for the Clinton years:

39.6%.
2001-2002-38.6%
Lowered by Bush even further to 35%.

When Democrats argue for increasing the top marginal rate they aren't asking for an unbelievable increase.

Certainly not asking for enough of an increase that Republicans can be justified in screaming that this is "class warfare".

There are two things I want:

1-People have to have paid some tax. When you do your 1040 and your tax is 0 (don't mean you owe 0). I mean your tax is calculated to be 0, then you don't have a real investment in the game.

2-There should be more brackets. Explain this to me. Why should the top bracket be at 388, 350?

Explain it to me:

Someone makes 500,000. The last 111,650 is taxed at 35%.

Someone makes 4,500,000. The last 4,111,650 is taxed at 35%....

Why in the fuck does someone making $500,000 pay the same % on his last dollars of income as somebody making 4.5 million????

I don't think they need to raise taxes on people making 400,000, 500,000. But at a certain point people should pay more. How about at 750,000 the rate go up to 36%. At 1.5 million rate up to 37%. And so on, until a top rate of 40% or so.

That wouldn't raise taxes on small businesses that are job creators (because true small businesses aren't owned by individuals and making multi millions per year!!!!!!).

And it would cause the very to uber rich to pay more!!!!!!

capital gains rate was lowered by Bush to 15%.

That was just a huge gift to the very rich.

Top 0.1%. Yes one tenth of one percent, earn over half of all capital gains.

The laws in this country benefit the people with the money to make the laws/influence how the laws are made.

The lower tax rate for the wealthy is built upon the absurd logic that the rich (people in general who are the ultimate capitalists/profit seekers) will use their extra wealth to the benefit of the less rich.

Willard Mitt Romney benefits from 2 forms of ridiculousness.

From an NPR article
Carried interest rule-
Many private-equity managers are paid under a structure popularly known as "two and twenty": They get a paid a fee that's two percent of the assets under management, and they also get to keep 20 percent of the profits from their funds. That 20 percent is carried interest.

Here's a wildly oversimplified example. Imagine that investors — pension plans, endowments, whatever — put $100 million into a private-equity fund. The fund turns a profit of $15 million. The people who run the fund would get $2 million as a management fee, plus $3 million as a share of the profits.

The $2 million is taxed as income; the $3 million is taxed at the (much lower) capital gains rate.


Why should a hedge fund manager get to be taxed at a lower rate?

2-Capital gains-now 15%.

Romney pays alot of money in tax, but I question why his % rate should be that low. My wife and I ended up paying about 15% of our income in taxes for 2011. Why should he be able to pay the same % because he was in private equity and his income comes from that, and capital gains???

He made what we made in a year, in about 1/2 a day or something like that.

So many issues in this country. Why are we dependent on oil? Why are the roads so shitty? Why can European countries have more public transportation than us? Why do we spend so much on healthcare yet we are unhealthy? Why is the % of money made by the wealthiest growing, but for almost everyone else it is stagnant? What do we do when social security amounts skyrocket with the retirement of all the baby boomers?

I don't care whether someone is a Republican or a Democrat, it is time for a real discussion about real issues.

I seriously doubt it occurs.

Gumby wrote:The laws in this country benefit the people with the money to make the laws/influence how the laws are made.

The lower tax rate for the wealthy is built upon the absurd logic that the rich (people in general who are the ultimate capitalists/profit seekers) will use their extra wealth to the benefit of the less rich.

since the rich are job creators, I'm guessing Mitt Romney created a ton of jobs with the 2 tax ideas I discussed in my previous post.



Oh wait, is the 2 extra accountants and a couple extra investment advisors, job creation????? That is about all that came from his extra money.

What annoys me is you guys lump billionares and millioniars into the upper middle class who are the ones supporting this country. They are the small business owners, doctors, and skill laborors.

95% of taxes that run this country come from this bracket. These are the people that get taxed up the ass. I'm a co-owner of a business and it's gotten to the point where we don't want to expand because hiring more employees is just not worth it.

Billioniars like Warren Buffet don't pay shit in taxes because they got an army of lawyers and tax experts. They can write almot all their shit off. The joke is, Buffet's secretary pays more in taxes than he does, because she's in the upper middle class.

I'm not asking for small businessmen to be taxed more.

I would like more brackets. If you make 750,000 you should pay a higher marginal rate than someone making 350,000.

If you make 2,000,000, you should pay a higher marginal rate than someone making 750,000.


And if you are making 20,000,000 or 30,000,000, you should be paying more than someone making a couple million.

If you are making 200,000,000 or 300,000,000, you should be paying more than someone making 20-30 million.


And I argued that carried interest needs to go away as hedge fund managers end up paying a low marginal rate because of it.

In addition, the preferential rate on capital gains and qualified dividends should go away (when the top 0.1% has around 50% or more of the total amount, it is a tax giveaway).

Warren Buffet's income results from quite a bit of capital gains. His secretary is earning wages. Ordinary income. Ordinary income is not given preferential treatment by the tax code.

If a doctor earns ordinary income (wages or schedule C business income), it is going to be taxed at ordinary income rates. If that doctor makes 500,000, his last dollar is taxed at 35%.

If a doctor is retired and has a 5,000,000 portfolio. That doctor generates a 10% return from his investments.

500,000 of capital gains. Assuming they all qualify for the preferential rate, doctor, pays 15%.

That doesn't make fundamental sense to me.

I see no problem with two flat taxes, below 60k you pay 10-12%. Above, you pay 20%. Everybody pays.

GrantZilla wrote:I see no problem with two flat taxes, below 60k you pay 10-12%. Above, you pay 20%. Everybody pays.

Is that revenue neutral? If revenue decreases we have a problem. I hate government but social security, medicare, and our military cost alot.

captainanddew wrote:

GrantZilla wrote:I see no problem with two flat taxes, below 60k you pay 10-12%. Above, you pay 20%. Everybody pays.

Is that revenue neutral? If revenue decreases we have a problem. I hate government but social security, medicare, and our military cost alot.

Hence the everybody pays part. Right now nearly 50% of Americans don't pay income tax. It's a joke.

GrantZilla wrote:

captainanddew wrote:

GrantZilla wrote:I see no problem with two flat taxes, below 60k you pay 10-12%. Above, you pay 20%. Everybody pays.

Is that revenue neutral? If revenue decreases we have a problem. I hate government but social security, medicare, and our military cost alot.

Hence the everybody pays part. Right now nearly 50% of Americans don't pay income tax. It's a joke.

But to be honest those 42% of Americans that dont only bring in less than 1% of the income. That top 1% is the one that isnt doing their share. The Walton family needs to do their part. They are the richest family in the damn world why is their tax rate below mine. I am a fucking teacher.

Soonermark890 wrote:But to be honest those 42% of Americans that dont only bring in less than 1% of the income. That top 1% is the one that isnt doing their share. The Walton family needs to do their part. They are the richest family in the damn world why is their tax rate below mine. I am a fucking teacher.

I agree. I can tell you most conservatives are not talking about lower taxes for the super rich millioniars and billioniars. It's the upper middle class. It's no joke that this bracket is supporting America.

You can see how certain people can get jaded about the lower class keeps demanding shit when they are not the ones paying for it. It's like me wanting you to pay for my shit and I contribute noithing. I don't think most people got a problem paying a fair percentage in taxes for their country. But not fair. Not even close.

this is a good topic but unfortunetly its loaded with misconceptions a lack of understanding of some things and statements tossed into the air that are a result of thoses 2 plus a little political retoric...first 47 percent of folks dont pay any taxes.let them pay there fair share.realy.the reason its 47 percent is because all thoses folks live below the poverty level or at the poverty level or just above the poverty level which the level is unrealiticaly low .example the poverty level for a person of one is about 10 800 dollars.where can anyone live in the usa and support themselves live alone .maybe little abners hometown dogpatch.included in that 47 percent are folks that have zero income .none at all.so lets not begrudge thoses folks at all..give them a opportunity to rise above that level so they can actualy pay some tax.
second 34 percent of all corporations paid no taxes.yep thats right.yes some corporations made no profit or a tiny one thus zero taxes.but 14 of the top 50 corporations paid no tax or had a minus tax bill which means a tax credit.there lies a big problem.there income was huge yet paid zero.hello folks.
small business creates 70 percent of all the jobs.some conservative officals make you believe small business is a mom and pop operation that stuggles and any tax burden will close them down.total bullshit.again see above where 34 percent of the corporations dont pay any tax.thats ok if you make little or no profit.its the poverty line for corporations or small business.
by the way small business is defined as thoses who employ 500 folks or less. so contrary to what was said here there are small business owners that are multi millionares and make millions in income for themselves.so when the conservative officals say raising the tax on individuals will hurt small business there full of shit.example a business owner employing 470 folks and that company does well.lets say hes the ceo of the company and makes a million a year in salary and yes pays the fair rate in tax.but after all expenses of the company or exp-ansion etc etc he gets a 5 million dollar bonus.that should be personell income.but with loopholes and other stuff he ends up paying far less then the fair tax..again this is income over and above everything else..so how does raising his tax to lets say 38 percent or close all loopholes and make the top rate 28 percent hurt that business.it doesnt.its political bullshit retoric.
on social security dont get me started.its not bankrupting the country.yes they can pay the babyboomers also.and its not a entitlement porogram either.i made a huge post explaing that.first it dont belong in the general fund or budjet.it was never intended to.for years the ss fund has been raped of hundreds upon hundreds of millions or billions of dollars to pay for blowing up iraq etc etc.i outlined a 7 tax tier after a certain income level not 2.all studies by the cbo and economists have said it would raise revenue.
as captain pointed out how does mitt romney create jobs or how does appliying a fair tax on him or movie stars or hedge fund folks destroy jobs.it doesnt.its the eric cantor john beoner typical bullshit..

GrantZilla wrote:Dmar, are you paying 35% in taxes? People tend to think differently when it's them paying highest you can pay in taxes and see other people paying jackshit.

Small business depends on the type of industry. Sure, in manufacturing, below 500 people is a small business.

In general, most small business employee less than a dozen people. Talking doctors, resturants, non big franchise coffee shops, ect. The overhead for these busineses is insane.

People talk about greedy doctors. They should look into the cost of being a doctor. What is the incentive to be in school until your late 20s, have huge student loan bills, and overhead costs such as getting neccissary equipment, ect if not to make good money. Most doctors don't pay off all their overhead until their mid to late 40s. Why so many doctors keep going in their 50s-60s. That's where they start making the real profit.

People have a knee jerk reaction to pharmaceutical companies "They're greedy." I suggest they look into how much it costs to make a new drug from formula to human testing to getting it cleared by the FDA. BILLIONS! And they only have a short window to make it back before the drug goes generic. If these companies knew they wouldn't cover the costs and make a profit, guess what, no new drugs.

Why communism and sociolism will never work. Life is not fair, nor is everybody equel. And one should not be bent over and ass raped because they acheived a certain level of success in their life and some other clown motivation in life is to flip hamburgers.

Do you know why about 70% of the doctors I know personally through my father are still working in their 60s?

They spent their fucking money!!!!! If you make 200,000 or 300,000 or 400,000 before taxes, it does no good to buy the most expensive cars, take $25,000 vacations, eat out every single meal, and allow your wife to buy as much shit as possible.

Live within your means if you don't make alot of money. Live below your means if you make alot of money. My dad's 2 sayings. Very true.

grant id love to be in a position to pay 3.5 million dollars in taxes.trust me on that and so would everyone on this forum.again by no means is anyone who is making millions getting raped as you suggest.your comment about the kid or person flipping burgers reveals a lot about you and the type of guy you are.sorry.its elitism written all over it thats looking down upon a person making a honest living calling them clowns because there not in the 30-35 percent tax bracket.nor is a person a clown cause he works in a factory for lets say 15 dollars an hour.thoses folks are greatfull they have work.its also thoses clowns that make industry work.take away that burger flipper and mc donalds goes down the tubes.take away the factory clown and manufactoriung goes down the tubes.pfzier by the way the drug company made record profits again last year.again there are several folks on this forum that dont pay 35 percent.are you looking down on them.if i was paying 35 percent i would not think differently.id be glad to pay that and be extremly greatfull that i wasnt a person that pays little or none because hes struggling for food on the table.of course you in reality begrudge thoses folks.of course thoses folks are not equal.there less of a human then you.people are not equal economicaly of course.in all other respects they are.in gods eyes thats if you believe in one or under our set rules of laws that include the constitution.thats of course if you truly believe in the constitution or laws of quality.basicaly all the charts showing income brakets over the past 30 years has a huge majority of this population you call clowns because there not a elitist like you and of course not your equal as a person but beneith you.our military which i bet you love and support no matter what in huge defence increases in budjet is loaded with clowns that fight and go to war.clowns at a income level you look down upon.now to interject communism or whatever tells me a lot about you also.it paints a picture that you already established with your own words.humans are not equals.there are the elite that are real humans and the working poor or thoses who make a meagor living including up to teachers are clowns.inferior semi-humans.talk about a cast system.you wreek of it with statements like that.

Life isn't fair. People aren't expected to be equal. America was about the equality of opportunity, not equal results.

The complaint that the OWS made so clumsily is that equality of opportunity has diminished. There is less social mobility than there was previously.

Something that does bother me:
Income Inequality.

In 1928, the top 1% was taking in 23.9% of earnings.
New deal policies in the 1930s.
top 1% was taking in 12.5-10% of earnings from early 1940s to early 1970s.
In 1976, the top 1% was taking in 8.9% of earnings

in 2007, the top 1% was taking in 23.5% of earnings

Interesting parallel-

1928, top 1% 23.9% of earnings
2007-top 1% 23.5% of earnings



1929-stock market crash and then Great Depression
2008-stock market crash, liquidity frozen, and then Great Recession

I have no idea if the 2 are related. I am not an economist. But it is an interesting thing.