After reviewing JMM's career, I was surprised.

I am newer to boxing so I didn't see a lot of his earlier fights. I also hate people tearing down good fighter's resumes with hindsight. However, I did not know that he has only won one trinket and one lineal title outside of picking up vacant belts. He picked up 2 vacant at feather and 2 vacant in one fight at lightweight. Outside of those, he won a mildly disputed fight against Barrera for a 130 belt. The call in the 7th round was a 4 point swing in favor of JMM. The fact that Casamayor should not have had the lineal belt is another slight.

After looking up these facts, I wonder why Cotto gets slammed and not JMM for picking up paper titles. I also can say that JMM's resume does not impress me as much as his brother's.

Resume matters more than trinkets, whether they are vacant or not.

I agree but which names jump out from his resume? Peden, Salido, MAB, Casamayor, Diaz, and Katsidis are the names I get. Again I'm not trying to reduce JMM but really I'm elevating Rafa and Cotto. Rafa became champ in 2 divisions. Cotto hasn't been champ but has been the top guy for a vacant crown in 2 divisions.

Rafa was only lineal champ at Jr Feather when he beat Vázquez in their first fight.

The thing about JMM is that he's been great against most everybody. Only top tier guys have had success and he's destryed everyone else. 4 true losses vs Mayweather (ATG), Pacquiao (disputed), & undefeateds Chis John & Norwood. He schooled title holders like Peden, Medina, Diaz & Casamayor. I think he's got a great resume'.

flapanther2001 wrote:The thing about JMM is that he's been great against most everybody. Only top tier guys have had success and he's destryed everyone else. 4 true losses vs Mayweather (ATG), Pacquiao (disputed), & undefeateds Chis John & Norwood. He schooled title holders like Peden, Medina, Diaz & Casamayor. I think he's got a great resume'.

great point. i still havent watched his fight against john but i hear a lot of people say it was a bad decision. anybody see it that disagrees? but ya, JMM has pretty easily handled most of his opponents.

cotto was never on the level of JMM. he was a good fighter but not great. rafa i think was as good as his brother. he just doesnt always get the same credit. he would have given pac heck coming up in weight if they would have fought.

I think hes the exception when it comes to vacated belts. The term is overrated to a degree IMO. Yes, beating a champion is better than picking up a vacated belt, but I think defending it against the toughest opposition is just as good. Marquez has fought the best and his resume is HOF worthy alone. In his first 4 losses, many people can say they were all won by Marquez, hes just a fighter on the wrong side of the scorecards to a more popular fighter (even on that DQ if you read up on it). Honestly I didnt ever see Marquez lose a fight until he fought Floyd, and thats with being at a huge disadvantage as it was. Had Hamed, Morales and MAB would have stepped up to fight Marquez when they were all in their prime, I think Marquez would of handled all 3 and would of been a star from early on his career, not late like its now.

Diego408 wrote:I think hes the exception when it comes to vacated belts. The term is overrated to a degree IMO. Yes, beating a champion is better than picking up a vacated belt, but I think defending it against the toughest opposition is just as good.

Yup. There is no difference beating a paper "champ" or fighting for a vacant trinket. Trinkets mean jack shit.

Beating THE MAN of the division or beating the top guys in the division to become THE MAN is what matters.

He should have 2 victories over Packy.

Looking at his lightweight career, he beat the top 3 lightweights during his run.

SlickMoney wrote:He should have 2 victories over Packy.

Looking at his lightweight career, he beat the top 3 lightweights during his run.

And he's still thee man at 135.....

i dont think marquez has a great resume.he has a decent one.sometimes you determine greatness by just viewing the fighter.here marquez shines.his ring IQ is top notch as well as his counter punching.good balance terriific ring generalship power heart smart boxing abilty.hes a very respectable power puncher good body puncher ..most of the time he aqdapts well in the ring.hes not a robot but a fluid type fighter.hes very sound tech wise and combined with grit and determination.
he has shown thoses attributes with what ill call a A type performance against some good fighters.the number of good fighters he fought is adaquate.his performance against them as well as carreer wise against others has always been first rate.with me at least marquezs greatness is determined by just viewing him and the quality of things he puts together every time.his resume of course isnt robinson gavilin greb etc etc hell it falls short of gene fullmers but its adaquate.its good.his talent is undeniable.its at a level of superb.at times you have to look beyound a huge resume if its not there and view the fighter..what my eyes view is a great fighter..

[quote="dmar5143"]i dont think marquez has a great resume.he has a decent one.sometimes you determine greatness by just viewing the fighter.here marquez shines.his ring IQ is top notch as well as his counter punching.good balance terriific ring generalship power heart smart boxing abilty.hes a very respectable power puncher good body puncher ..most of the time he aqdapts well in the ring.hes not a robot but a fluid type fighter.hes very sound tech wise and combined with grit and determination.
he has shown thoses attributes with what ill call a A type performance against some good fighters.the number of good fighters he fought is adaquate.his performance against them as well as carreer wise against others has always been first rate.with me at least marquezs greatness is determined by just viewing him and the quality of things he puts together every time.his resume of course isnt robinson gavilin greb etc etc hell it falls short of gene fullmers but its adaquate.its good.his talent is undeniable.its at a level of superb.at times you have to look beyound a huge resume if its not there and view the fighter..what my eyes view is a great fighter..[/quote]

Marquez is a great fighter. He has as much heart as anyone I've seen. Getting knocked down 3 times by Pac in the first round, yet rising to do battle for 11 more rounds is a HOF effort.

dmar5143 wrote:i dont think marquez has a great resume.he has a decent one.sometimes you determine greatness by just viewing the fighter.here marquez shines.his ring IQ is top notch as well as his counter punching.good balance terriific ring generalship power heart smart boxing abilty.hes a very respectable power puncher good body puncher ..most of the time he aqdapts well in the ring.hes not a robot but a fluid type fighter.hes very sound tech wise and combined with grit and determination.
he has shown thoses attributes with what ill call a A type performance against some good fighters.the number of good fighters he fought is adaquate.his performance against them as well as carreer wise against others has always been first rate.with me at least marquezs greatness is determined by just viewing him and the quality of things he puts together every time.his resume of course isnt robinson gavilin greb etc etc hell it falls short of gene fullmers but its adaquate.its good.his talent is undeniable.its at a level of superb.at times you have to look beyound a huge resume if its not there and view the fighter..what my eyes view is a great fighter..

This is the point I was trying to make but more expounded upon. He is a great fighter but his resume is lacking. I thought Pac won the first 2 fights and just watched the first one again last night. JMM is top 5 P4P right now but what is his best official win? Is it MAB, Casamayor, or Diaz?

UBeeg9cats wrote:

dmar5143 wrote:i dont think marquez has a great resume.he has a decent one.sometimes you determine greatness by just viewing the fighter.here marquez shines.his ring IQ is top notch as well as his counter punching.good balance terriific ring generalship power heart smart boxing abilty.hes a very respectable power puncher good body puncher ..most of the time he aqdapts well in the ring.hes not a robot but a fluid type fighter.hes very sound tech wise and combined with grit and determination.
he has shown thoses attributes with what ill call a A type performance against some good fighters.the number of good fighters he fought is adaquate.his performance against them as well as carreer wise against others has always been first rate.with me at least marquezs greatness is determined by just viewing him and the quality of things he puts together every time.his resume of course isnt robinson gavilin greb etc etc hell it falls short of gene fullmers but its adaquate.its good.his talent is undeniable.its at a level of superb.at times you have to look beyound a huge resume if its not there and view the fighter..what my eyes view is a great fighter..

This is the point I was trying to make but more expounded upon. He is a great fighter but his resume is lacking. I thought Pac won the first 2 fights and just watched the first one again last night. JMM is top 5 P4P right now but what is his best official win? Is it MAB, Casamayor, or Diaz?

His official "great" wins arent there and its because of the desicions. I honestly seen all his losses (besides the DQ of course) Those fights against Pacquaio, the majority of the people thought he won. He was flat out robbed vs Norwood and that fight is what set him back years in his career. He worked John, but John got the hometown desicion. I didnt even think that fight was even that close. But I mean wins over MAB, Diaz, Casamajor, Salido, Katsidis, Gainer and Peden are solid. What does make Marquez look great is simply his body of work, we just cant put it in the form of wins and losses.

UBeeg9cats wrote:I wonder why Cotto gets slammed and not JMM for picking up paper titles. I also can say that JMM's resume does not impress me as much as his brother's.

It had to do with Cotto being the more popular and hyped fighter. JMM always flew under the radar so people appreciated him when he finally got recognition. Cotto was always in the spotlight so people couldn't wait to tear him down.

JMM's resume might not impress you as much as his brother's...because his brother is also an exceptional fighter. We're talking about two likely HoFers here. JMM is legit. Everyone else has gone into more detail as to why.

The other point is that Cotto probably doesn't get the respect he deserves. His recent losses have overshadowed an excellent career. If he is able to established himself as one of the top guys at 154 (by winning big fights and not by default), I see him in the hall as well.

Cotto will never be HOF worthy. He'd have to be THE MAN in atleast one division, and so far, he never has been.

I don't see him doing it at Jr Middle either. I got Margs giving him a repeat beatdown. And even if he get's passed Margs, I doubt he ever fights Canelo, and if he does, I'd favor the kid over him as well.

Diego408 wrote:His official "great" wins arent there and its because of the desicions. I honestly seen all his losses (besides the DQ of course) Those fights against Pacquaio, the majority of the people thought he won. He was flat out robbed vs Norwood and that fight is what set him back years in his career. He worked John, but John got the hometown desicion. I didnt even think that fight was even that close. But I mean wins over MAB, Diaz, Casamajor, Salido, Katsidis, Gainer and Peden are solid. What does make Marquez look great is simply his body of work, we just cant put it in the form of wins and losses.

I need to watch the John fight. The only American reporter at the fight had John by decision but I hear many fans say JMM dominated. I will have to see for myself because I feel Gumby is probably correct about JMM getting extra credit for being undervalued for much of his career.

today any two time trinket holder has a strong possibilty to get in the hall..being the man isnt needed to be in the hall ask charley burley or billy graham.if cotto wins the so called real title which i doubt i still feel hes not a hall canidate.hes not a great fighter nor a near great one .raffy falls short also.dont worry guys if you disagree with me the voters will say yes to them and others.

dmar5143 wrote:today any two time trinket holder has a strong possibilty to get in the hall..being the man isnt needed to be in the hall ask charley burley or billy graham.if cotto wins the so called real title which i doubt i still feel hes not a hall canidate.hes not a great fighter nor a near great one .raffy falls short also.dont worry guys if you disagree with me the voters will say yes to them and others.

Would you put JMM in?

Gumby wrote:

dmar5143 wrote:today any two time trinket holder has a strong possibilty to get in the hall..being the man isnt needed to be in the hall ask charley burley or billy graham.if cotto wins the so called real title which i doubt i still feel hes not a hall canidate.hes not a great fighter nor a near great one .raffy falls short also.dont worry guys if you disagree with me the voters will say yes to them and others.

Would you put JMM in?

Would you put Chris John in?

jmm yes id put him in.chris john.hell no.

Speaking of Chris John, I hope he fights someone legit in his next fight. In terms of unification, he has an Australian fighter with a belt near his home country and Caballero, since he is Panamanian, might have extra influence with the WBA to get him a shot at the "super" WBA title. If Caba beat John, he might actually get one of the bigger fights.

for me his resume has as much to do with his losses as with those he beat.he has always been ultra competitive,never has he been blown away.for me,it shows he's adaptable,durable,tough & determined.that in itself is his resume.compare for example to judah,a fighter with all the talent & tools,but no heart(desire).