Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  SlickMoney on Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:17 am

boxinglawyer wrote: I think Pacs is the best of his era by a wide margin. Only ODLH comes close, the missed matches by ODLH clinches it for me. Pac fought em all, beat em all, and challenged himself. Pac truly is a once in a life-time type of fighter.


Calm all the way down. How is Pac's resume better?

Right now give me 4 prime fighters that Pac fought over Tito, Mosley, Floyd, or Hopkins.
The versions of Camacho, Chavez Sr, and Whitaker that Oscar fought are better than any washed up, weight drained fighter Pac fought. Now add in guys like Quartey and Vargas. Pac's resume is not touching Oscar's.
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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  dmar5143 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:23 am

PP mayweathers ducking isnt blown out of proportion because folks hate him.its fact.its not one fight but several.i dislike floyd a ton but always gave him credit for his greatness.there are several writers fans that can be objective on this.lets see williams margo cotto mosley now pac are examples.all would of been a big big fight when these guys were at there best.floyd retired a few times or gave excuses.so if it was one fighter or maybe even two you can justify out of proportion.a good 5 or maybe more is called ducking.
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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  powerpuncher on Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:56 am

dmar5143 wrote:PP mayweathers ducking isnt blown out of proportion because folks hate him.its fact.its not one fight but several.i dislike floyd a ton but always gave him credit for his greatness.there are several writers fans that can be objective on this.lets see williams margo cotto mosley now pac are examples.all would of been a big big fight when these guys were at there best.floyd retired a few times or gave excuses.so if it was one fighter or maybe even two you can justify out of proportion.a good 5 or maybe more is called ducking.
most of those fights i wouldnt really call ducks though. if thats the case then i could say that many fights that havent happened in the history of boxing as "ducks." margo wasnt every that good and i never thought that the fight should have happened because he wasnt in mayweathers league and didnt really bring anything to the table. mayweather even said this at the time. the whole pac situation was both sides, not at all one sided. williams was still up and coming and was just thought as a stylistic matchup for floyd because he was tall and seemed to be a pretty good fighter at the time.

cotto and mosley i will give you though. pac also ducked mosley and again, "ducked" a ton of fighters that he skipped over as he quickly jumped weight classes.

i dont classify every fight that didnt happen as a "duck."
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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  dmar5143 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:53 am

i guess we will disagree on this.mayweather was ready for the margo fight they claimed and money agreed on then the winner gets judah.judah lost to baldimar so floyd pulled out of the margo fight for baldimar for the same money.baldimar brought far less to the table then margo.he did have a legit welter belt thats it..margo was considered at that time dangerous.floyd backed out of that fight because baldimar was considered a very easy fight compared to margo.thats a duck in several folks eyes. williams was a top ranked fighter who beat margo not a up and coming guy.he was considered the most avoidable fighter in the game at that time.all of boxing was calling for that fight.floyd avoided it.thats a duck.when williams got beat in a upset then floyd used the excuse the guys got a loss.
in all honesty i realy cant think of all the guys or ton of guys pac so called ducked on his way up in weight classes.
i realy cant think of any fights that were in high demand like the floyd williams or margo fights that pac ducked..if there was a ton give me 5 and the reasons for that and the boxing talk wanting thoses fights.i cant think of any...the mosley fight was freddie roach talking not pac.maybe he was avoided but i dont know for sure since freddie has yet to promote a fight.
the question is not that all folks hate floyd and say he ducked fights but are you realy being unbiased here with the claim pac ducked a ton of guys going up in class.who are they.folks anybody BL sooner captain frank anybody know because in all honesty i realy dont.PP who are they.again give me 5 since many of us give 5 for floyd.
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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  hillsicc303 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:04 pm

Let's really look at Manny's resume. Not just the names, but the fighters, and the state they were in:

Ledwaba - Good win, good upset. The first real exposure of Manny on American soil.

Manny's best win IMO was over MAB. That was a great win, a win that put him on the map, and a win that was a pretty significant upset at the time. Their second fight was a joke.

Morales - Here is a guy coming off of his second loss to MAB, was a 2 to 1 underdog to Manny, and many people in the boxing world knew he had seen better days. And what does Manny do? He goes out there and loses to a shop-worn Morales. And the rematches were a joke. A joke because many people forget that after beating Manny, Morales promptly went on to get his ass handed to him by Zahir Raheem. So once again, Manny fights him coming off of a loss. A trend we will see in the future.

JMM - the first fight was a classic. But it was more of a classic comeback by JMM. After getting dropped 3 times in the first round, he goes on to dominate the fight. A fight that many people think he won. Manny got the nod in the next two, but once again, they were HIGHLY disputed wins, wins that a lot of people should have gone the other way. Then we all know what happened in the 4th fight. But Manny is given huge props for a quadrilogy that some say he went 0-4 in. Shaky at best.

Decent resume for his career under 135...Now here comes the 'Farce Master Flex' part of Manny's career:

David Diaz - By FAR the weakest of the 135 pound title holders at the time. If 'The Mummy' was made in Mexico, he would get the part. A handpicked, slow, plodding, face first brawler, the kind of guy who is tailor made for Manny. Not impressive at all. Especially given his other options(Casamayor, Juan Diaz, Julio Diaz).

Oscar - The win was big for Manny in terms of REALLY putting him on the map as far as a Superstar, and big draw, no disputing that. But the corpse he beat up on that night is nothing to squawk about. Oscar was done. Done, and fighting at a weight he hadn't fought at in nearly 10 years. So done that he needed an IV just to make it to the ring. So done, that a few months before, Little Stevie Forbes busted him up.

Hatton - Never that good to begin with, and had already been KO'd by Floyd. Then in his comeback fight, was nearly KO'd by Juan Lazcano, a badly faded former LW. Just another tailor made, face first brawler for Manny to feast on.

Cotto - Probably Manny's toughest opponent in his rise in weight, but still highly flawed physically and mentally. Cotto had already suffered the beat down by Margarito, and barely survived a life and death struggle with Clottey(a fight some thought he lost). Good win though.

Clottey - Coming off of a loss to Cotto. Nothing more really needs to be said about this farce.

Margo - Another farce. Margo was coming off of a crushing KO loss to Shame, a one year suspension, and a comeback fight in which he looked like stir fried shit. But of course, he gets to fight Manny for some vacant 154 pound title. Manipulation at it's best.

Shame - By the time Manny got to Shame, Shame was so done he was overcooked. Shame was done when Floyd beat him, and just for further proof, he goes out and draws with Sergio More(lol). But of course, Manny takes the fight with him. Farce fight of the year.

Bradley - Decent fighter, nothing special, didn't deserve a shot at Manny. But of course with Bradley being with Top Rank, he gets the fight. Manny beats on the limited Bradley, but amazingly couldn't finish the one legged guy, and gets robbed.

Now if you look at that resume, and think it's one of the best in boxing...then I have some beach front property in Kansas to sell you...

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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  dmar5143 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:12 pm

beachfront propery in kansas.thats very rare.how much.lol.
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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  Soonermark890 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:16 pm

SlickMoney wrote:
boxinglawyer wrote: I think Pacs is the best of his era by a wide margin. Only ODLH comes close, the missed matches by ODLH clinches it for me. Pac fought em all, beat em all, and challenged himself. Pac truly is a once in a life-time type of fighter.


Calm all the way down. How is Pac's resume better?

Right now give me 4 prime fighters that Pac fought over Tito, Mosley, Floyd, or Hopkins.
The versions of Camacho, Chavez Sr, and Whitaker that Oscar fought are better than any washed up, weight drained fighter Pac fought. Now add in guys like Quartey and Vargas. Pac's resume is not touching Oscar's.
we forget how awesome Oscar was and how he never ducked anyone

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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  Diego408 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:44 pm

SlickMoney wrote:
boxinglawyer wrote: I think Pacs is the best of his era by a wide margin. Only ODLH comes close, the missed matches by ODLH clinches it for me. Pac fought em all, beat em all, and challenged himself. Pac truly is a once in a life-time type of fighter.


Calm all the way down. How is Pac's resume better?

Right now give me 4 prime fighters that Pac fought over Tito, Mosley, Floyd, or Hopkins.
The versions of Camacho, Chavez Sr, and Whitaker that Oscar fought are better than any washed up, weight drained fighter Pac fought. Now add in guys like Quartey and Vargas. Pac's resume is not touching Oscar's.
100% agree with this.
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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  powerpuncher on Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:13 am

dmar5143 wrote:i guess we will disagree on this.mayweather was ready for the margo fight they claimed and money agreed on then the winner gets judah.judah lost to baldimar so floyd pulled out of the margo fight for baldimar for the same money.baldimar brought far less to the table then margo.he did have a legit welter belt thats it..margo was considered at that time dangerous.floyd backed out of that fight because baldimar was considered a very easy fight compared to margo.thats a duck in several folks eyes. williams was a top ranked fighter who beat margo not a up and coming guy.he was considered the most avoidable fighter in the game at that time.all of boxing was calling for that fight.floyd avoided it.thats a duck.when williams got beat in a upset then floyd used the excuse the guys got a loss.
in all honesty i realy cant think of all the guys or ton of guys pac so called ducked on his way up in weight classes.
i realy cant think of any fights that were in high demand like the floyd williams or margo fights that pac ducked..if there was a ton give me 5 and the reasons for that and the boxing talk wanting thoses fights.i cant think of any...the mosley fight was freddie roach talking not pac.maybe he was avoided but i dont know for sure since freddie has yet to promote a fight.
the question is not that all folks hate floyd and say he ducked fights but are you realy being unbiased here with the claim pac ducked a ton of guys going up in class.who are they.folks anybody BL sooner captain frank anybody know because in all honesty i realy dont.PP who are they.again give me 5 since many of us give 5 for floyd.
i wrote a whole post and it got erased. dumb! anyways, ill write a quick synopsis of my post.

"ducking" by your definition and avoiding the harder fights are the same to me. pac fought the best at lower weights. at 135, he fought david diaz who was the worst trinket holder at that weight and there were definitely some better fights for him there like against juan diaz or casaymayor (both of who JMM fought and beat there). we have already gone over the mosley duck. mosley was the true champ at 147 (cotto lost to margo then shane beat margo). shane says he will even drop to 140 for the fight, pac fights cotto instead for a 147 trinket at a catchweight. that was a blatant duck.

he fights clottey, margo, and mosley (a mosley who just lost to floyd then got a draw with mora). those were all worthless fights and the tougher fights would have been against alexander, bradley, khan, maidana, ortiz, or berto. whether or not the fights were being demanded, they were the tougher fights. he did end up fighting bradley though which was at least a more competitive fight than his 3 previous ones. the only reason pac got away with it though was because people wanted the floyd fight so bad that nobody really cared who he fought if it wasnt floyd. if floyd werent in the picture, those 3 fights wouldnt have been known as filler fights as they were known as at the time. they would have been viewed as pointless fights.

im not at all saying that floyd fought everyone that he should have but im saying that he usually fought a tough opponent even if it wasnt the one the fans wanted. if he would have fought a clottey, margo, or mosley that pac fought, people would have been calling for his head.
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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  boxinglawyer on Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:50 pm

Again, you will all be dead and dust before we see anything like Pac again. I never thought I would see it. Its been special and amazing and I am priveleged to have seen it in my lifetime. Fighters who make me feel like that can be counted on one hand. It is rare company.

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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  Soonermark890 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:48 pm

boxinglawyer wrote: Again, you will all be dead and dust before we see anything like Pac again. I never thought I would see it. Its been special and amazing and I am priveleged to have seen it in my lifetime. Fighters who make me feel like that can be counted on one hand. It is rare company.
+1 there is no doubt in my mind that he is the best of my lifetime. Others have had the opportunities but they where too worried about not taking risks.

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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  powerpuncher on Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:56 am

boxinglawyer wrote: Again, you will all be dead and dust before we see anything like Pac again. I never thought I would see it. Its been special and amazing and I am priveleged to have seen it in my lifetime. Fighters who make me feel like that can be counted on one hand. It is rare company.
again, its more because you are a fan of his. it mayweather did the same thing you probably wouldnt be saying the same thing.

and also again, pac is more of an interesting case that rarely happens (as in a fighter that carries up his speed and power to higher weights). he had a way easier time with bigger opponents than smaller ones who were quicker.
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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  hillsicc303 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:56 am

Again, you will all be dead and dust before we see anything like Pac again. I never thought I would see it. Its been special and amazing and I am priveleged to have seen it in my lifetime. Fighters who make me feel like that can be counted on one hand. It is rare company.

You have to be joking right?

You're obviously a HUGE Manny fan, and there is nothing wrong with that. But to say something like what you said, leaves me to believe you haven't been paying attention to the sport for the last 10-20 years. Maybe you're young, maybe you're relatively new to the sport, or maybe Manny brought you into the sport. If any of those are the case, I can maybe see why you would make a radical statement like that, otherwise you wouldn't have made that statement.

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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  hillsicc303 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:57 am

+1 there is no doubt in my mind that he is the best of my lifetime. Others have had the opportunities but they where too worried about not taking risks.

Again...you must be young, or have not seen many fighters to say that. But hey, it's your opinion, so whatever floats your boat...

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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  boxinglawyer on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:46 am

Hillsic,
Along with DMAR I think I am the only one here who can say they actually SAW Marciano, Robinson, Pep and company.
I dont idolize older fighters, though I am accused of it all the time, like many my age do. I simply state the facts as I see them. fighters in the old days were simply BETTER than the ones we have today.

For a proper perspective on what Pac has done, I will use Ray Leonard as an example. Ray would have to have done all he did PLUS move up to light heavy and beat Matthew Saad Muhammed and Yaqui Lopez. Then he would have needed to put a beat-down on Gerry Cooney or Ken Norton. Even if he did all this, I suspect there would be a guy or two out there (like on this board) who would denegrate his accomplishment by pointing out that Saad had already been beaten, Lopez was declining, and Cooney was "never that good".

Dont take my word for it. Take it from Hearns, Leonard, Hagler, Holmes and just about any other fighter you care to name not named Mayweather. Pac is something we wont ever see again. If I am wrong, it would be AWESOME. but im not..............................

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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  boxinglawyer on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:49 am

powerpuncher wrote:
boxinglawyer wrote: Again, you will all be dead and dust before we see anything like Pac again. I never thought I would see it. Its been special and amazing and I am priveleged to have seen it in my lifetime. Fighters who make me feel like that can be counted on one hand. It is rare company.
again, its more because you are a fan of his. it mayweather did the same thing you probably wouldnt be saying the same thing.

and also again, pac is more of an interesting case that rarely happens (as in a fighter that carries up his speed and power to higher weights). he had a way easier time with bigger opponents than smaller ones who were quicker.

I am a fan of boxing. Mayweather is a guy I simpy cant like, guys my age have problems with the whole "gangsta" attitude. However, I CAN acknowledge his accomplishments and skill.

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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  dmar5143 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:51 am

BL well said in both posts.i agree fully.
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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  hillsicc303 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:07 pm

Hillsic,
Along with DMAR I think I am the only one here who can say they actually SAW Marciano, Robinson, Pep and company.
I dont idolize older fighters, though I am accused of it all the time, like many my age do. I simply state the facts as I see them. fighters in the old days were simply BETTER than the ones we have today.

For a proper perspective on what Pac has done, I will use Ray Leonard as an example. Ray would have to have done all he did PLUS move up to light heavy and beat Matthew Saad Muhammed and Yaqui Lopez. Then he would have needed to put a beat-down on Gerry Cooney or Ken Norton. Even if he did all this, I suspect there would be a guy or two out there (like on this board) who would denegrate his accomplishment by pointing out that Saad had already been beaten, Lopez was declining, and Cooney was "never that good".

Dont take my word for it. Take it from Hearns, Leonard, Hagler, Holmes and just about any other fighter you care to name not named Mayweather. Pac is something we wont ever see again. If I am wrong, it would be AWESOME. but im not..............................
I'm always cautious of anybody who tries to pass off their opinion as fact.

And for somebody who has supposedly seen so many great fighters with their own eyes, you make a radical claim. And for somebody who claims to have seen all of these fighters, if you can't recognize Manny's shady resume(especially over 130), then I have to question your boxing knowledge.

Manny is indeed a very good fighter, but to elevate him to the level you are is somewhat baffling. I've seen the Sugar Rays, the Hearns, the Haglers, the Aaron Pryor's, the Oscars, the Whitakers, the Titos, the Floyds, the Julio Cesar Chavezs, with my own eyes. And he aint them, sorry.

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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  dmar5143 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:32 pm

BL not only did we see thoses guys fight live but we knew how good the other guys were that many of thoses fighters and others actualy were that they fought.another advantage we both have is that we actualy talked one on one with several all time greats from differnt eras and not a 5 minute talk.here folks would admire the brutal honesty of guys like dempsey ross basilio marciano walker and others there thoughts on fighters and there knowledge and love and respect of the sport.honesty from the heart not PR crap etc etc.my old friend bushy graham who fought kid chocalotte frankie genero fidel labarbra bud taylor canzanerri kid berk and several top fighters in the 20s gave me a understanding and learning experience you cant get by reading a book by some so called sports writer..theses guys not only spoke with great knowledge and experience but actualy saw a greb a walker a louis a ambers etc etc fight in person and some several times.
they were not only fans but fighters.
bushy would say watch for this or this guy will do this well or heres a mistake etc etc.my father did the same thing since he was a huge fan who say greb fight 6 times dempsey tunney walker pep marciano robinson and others in person at the arena in there prime.
thoses thoughts stay with you forever and you develope off them.
the greats the best of the best talking from the heart.thats far differnt then listning to max larry jim lampkey and others who on a scale compared to guys that saw history live.to quote roger mayweather thoses guys know shit about boxing in comparrison.
given that and othr factors its not favortism when we say this era was great or thoses fighters overall are far better in general then todays..its fact not favoritism.
we both learned not only because at a young age we got involved or watched the top fighters in the golden age but also learned from greats from eras of a golden age that we did not see.
we are lucky and hopefully others can benefit from it.
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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  Soonermark890 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:37 pm

hillsicc303 wrote:
+1 there is no doubt in my mind that he is the best of my lifetime. Others have had the opportunities but they where too worried about not taking risks.

Again...you must be young, or have not seen many fighters to say that. But hey, it's your opinion, so whatever floats your boat...
hill I'm only 30 so yes he is the best of my lifetime. He has done things no other fighter in history has. 4 lineal titles. Moved from 106lbs up to 147 while destroying bigger guys. No one has ever done that in my lifetime. The others i would consider are sweet pea, and Oscar.

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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  hillsicc303 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:00 pm

hill I'm only 30 so yes he is the best of my lifetime. He has done things no other fighter in history has. 4 lineal titles. Moved from 106lbs up to 147 while destroying bigger guys. No one has ever done that in my lifetime. The others i would consider are sweet pea, and Oscar.

Sooner,

You cannot dispute Manny's accomplishments on paper. But this is why I said in my original post on this thread: We have to look deeper than just the names and the belts. You have to look at the quality(as in where they prime/at their best), as opposed to quantity in this case. And not just for Manny, but for any fighter.

He got the hardware, but there were a lot of weird circumstances in how he got them. This all must be looked at. Oscar's resume absolutely CRUSHES Manny's in all aspects. Hell...even somebody like Zab Judah's resume can be argued to be better than Manny's(at least in terms of prime/quality fighters). Now would Manny beat the crap out of Zab? I'd like to think rather handily, but this topic was about resume's, and quite frankly, there are a lot of guy's who'd I put ahead of him in terms of that...

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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  Soonermark890 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:22 pm

hillsicc303 wrote:
hill I'm only 30 so yes he is the best of my lifetime. He has done things no other fighter in history has. 4 lineal titles. Moved from 106lbs up to 147 while destroying bigger guys. No one has ever done that in my lifetime. The others i would consider are sweet pea, and Oscar.

Sooner,

You cannot dispute Manny's accomplishments on paper. But this is why I said in my original post on this thread: We have to look deeper than just the names and the belts. You have to look at the quality(as in where they prime/at their best), as opposed to quantity in this case. And not just for Manny, but for any fighter.

He got the hardware, but there were a lot of weird circumstances in how he got them. This all must be looked at. Oscar's resume absolutely CRUSHES Manny's in all aspects. Hell...even somebody like Zab Judah's resume can be argued to be better than Manny's(at least in terms of prime/quality fighters). Now would Manny beat the crap out of Zab? I'd like to think rather handily, but this topic was about resume's, and quite frankly, there are a lot of guy's who'd I put ahead of him in terms of that...
i love Oscar. He is my all time favorite fighter but his resume is just not quite as good but for sure to me he is the closest. The only reason i say that is the fact that he did lose a lot of his big fights. Manny absolutely crushed people that we all thought were too big or whatever. That is why you will have so many fans argue with you on this one. We can honestly pick apart anyone's resume if we try. I can discredit almost all of Floyd's and i have pointed out a lot of things in the past but i think easily its between the three guys i mentioned. We forget just how great Oscar was don't we?

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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  SlickMoney on Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:33 pm

The topic was resume NOT accomplishments. None of you Pacboys can tell me Manny has a better resume than Oscar's. People wanna call Floyd a ducker but say nothing about Mannys brilliant matchmaking aka duck a fighter until he is washed up. Why did he fight Cotto at a catchweight but had no problem fighting Clottey at the 147 max just 5 months later? Why did he wait until Shane got schooled by Floyd until finally accepting a fight with him? Freddie Roach even says to Shane "you're too good". What great fighter did Manny move up in weight to beat? Pac cum guzzlers need to start being objective.
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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  SlickMoney on Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:40 pm

Like hillsic said u guys a taking quantity over quality. Bradley is the only guy I give Manny credit for fighting since Hatton. The rest have been handpicked opponents. Idc for paper titles. For the 3rd Marquez fight a lot of ppl had him KOing JMM. Again handpicked opponents to milk the cash cow.
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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

Post  Soonermark890 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:59 pm

SlickMoney wrote:The topic was resume NOT accomplishments. None of you Pacboys can tell me Manny has a better resume than Oscar's. People wanna call Floyd a ducker but say nothing about Mannys brilliant matchmaking aka duck a fighter until he is washed up. Why did he fight Cotto at a catchweight but had no problem fighting Clottey at the 147 max just 5 months later? Why did he wait until Shane got schooled by Floyd until finally accepting a fight with him? Freddie Roach even says to Shane "you're too good". What great fighter did Manny move up in weight to beat? Pac cum guzzlers need to start being objective.
oscar? Everyone and i mean everyone said PAC was crazy to jump two weight classes to fight him. I don't want to hear any bullshit about how Oscar was weight drained. Everyone thought PAC was getting ko'd but since he beat the shit out of him so bad he gets no credit right? Stop being a fucking hater. The guy is amazing plain and simple

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Re: Does Pacquiao have the best resume of all time?

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