Our Immortals

Lemme get this straight...

You have Manny Pacquiao ON the list...

But you DON'T have Jack Johnson, Joe Frazier, Wilfredo Benitez, Larry Holmes, Roy Jones Jr. and Floyd Mayweather on the list.

And I don't even like Joe Calzaghe, but as long as we are adding guys like Marciano...

koolkc107 wrote:Lemme get this straight...

You have Manny Pacquiao ON the list...

But you DON'T have Jack Johnson, Joe Frazier, Wilfredo Benitez, Larry Holmes, Roy Jones Jr. and Floyd Mayweather on the list.

And I don't even like Joe Calzaghe, but as long as we are adding guys like Marciano...

i disagreed with pac being on the list but at the time everybody thought that he was unstoppable. i do agree that if pac is on the list, other people who are on the same level should be added.

powerpuncher wrote:

koolkc107 wrote:Lemme get this straight...

You have Manny Pacquiao ON the list...

But you DON'T have Jack Johnson, Joe Frazier, Wilfredo Benitez, Larry Holmes, Roy Jones Jr. and Floyd Mayweather on the list.

And I don't even like Joe Calzaghe, but as long as we are adding guys like Marciano...

i disagreed with pac being on the list but at the time everybody thought that he was unstoppable. i do agree that if pac is on the list, other people who are on the same level should be added.

And so should those who are better than him and others on the list. How many heavies beat a prime Larry Holmes? How many middles and light heavies beat RJJ in his heyday? Both men were lightyears ahead of anything shown by Pac AND by others on the list.

koolkc107 wrote:Lemme get this straight...

You have Manny Pacquiao ON the list...

But you DON'T have Jack Johnson, Joe Frazier, Wilfredo Benitez, Larry Holmes, Roy Jones Jr. and Floyd Mayweather on the list.

And I don't even like Joe Calzaghe, but as long as we are adding guys like Marciano...

I have a feeling the OP is a big Pac fan and has a significantly inflated opinion of him and his accomplishments, given his inclusion in this list over others. I would probably put all of the above (with the exception of Calzaghe and maybe Jones Jr) ahead of Pac.

BoxingGenius wrote:

koolkc107 wrote:Lemme get this straight...

You have Manny Pacquiao ON the list...

But you DON'T have Jack Johnson, Joe Frazier, Wilfredo Benitez, Larry Holmes, Roy Jones Jr. and Floyd Mayweather on the list.

And I don't even like Joe Calzaghe, but as long as we are adding guys like Marciano...

I have a feeling the OP is a big Pac fan and has a significantly inflated opinion of him and his accomplishments, given his inclusion in this list over others. I would probably put all of the above (with the exception of Calzaghe and maybe Jones Jr) ahead of Pac.

actually this was a vote done that the entire board participated in. The reason PAC is on this list is because his career is vastly better than guys like Floyd who has avoided all the big fights of his career. Floyd had all the opportunities to be one of the greatest but he decided to play it safe just like rjj who might be the biggest ducker in boxing history.

I apologize then, I thought it was just your opinion. Anywhom, im not so sure Pacs career is any better than floyds when you break it down. He has fought a good amount of "floyds leftovers" as they say (hatton, DLH, Mosley). I mean if we are talking pre-147 for both, I would have to say floyds resume is better. Yes Floyd fights once a year, and he didnt face the best DLH, cotto, or Mosley (probably better versions than pac did however) but those are damn good wins. If it came down to ranking them as ATGs i think floyd would get the nod over manny when the resumes are compared. I think hes a di*K but hes a damn good fighter, and has faced most everyone he should have, as has pac. (obv excluding each other, both are to blame for that equally IMO). Pacs cotto win was probably his most significant, but questions can also be raised about that BS catchweight and the reasoning behind it. To be honest, if we are talking ATG immortals, as I interpret the thread, I think they have both benefited significantly from being in a watered down era, not their fault but old time fighters certainly deserve more credit for running the gauntlets they did.

BoxingGenius wrote:I apologize then, I thought it was just your opinion. Anywhom, im not so sure Pacs career is any better than floyds when you break it down. He has fought a good amount of "floyds leftovers" as they say (hatton, DLH, Mosley). I mean if we are talking pre-147 for both, I would have to say floyds resume is better. Yes Floyd fights once a year, and he didnt face the best DLH, cotto, or Mosley (probably better versions than pac did however) but those are damn good wins. If it came down to ranking them as ATGs i think floyd would get the nod over manny when the resumes are compared. I think hes a di*K but hes a damn good fighter, and has faced most everyone he should have, as has pac. (obv excluding each other, both are to blame for that equally IMO). Pacs cotto win was probably his most significant, but questions can also be raised about that BS catchweight and the reasoning behind it. To be honest, if we are talking ATG immortals, as I interpret the thread, I think they have both benefited significantly from being in a watered down era, not their fault but old time fighters certainly deserve more credit for running the gauntlets they did.

Floyd is a ducker. Plain and simple and their resumes are not close. Pac has by far fought the better comp. Floyd's leftovers?
How about Pacs leftovers. IE Cotto, JMM
If you want to compare resumes we can its not close.
Pac is the only 4 time lineal champ
Pac is the only person to win the lineal title in 4 of the original weight classes.
He has won more titles than anyone in history.
He has defeated
MAB
Morales
JMM
Oscar
Hatton
Cotto
Mosley
Thats 7 HOF fighters which is the only ones I figure we should list

Floyd has beat
JMM
Oscar
Hatton
Cotto
Mosley
Those are the only ones I am sure are HOF guys by today's standards.
Guys that might get in I guess are Diego, Castillo.

Now lets go ahead and mention the fact that Pac has rose from 106lbs to fighting at 147lbs
Floyd from 131 to 147lbs.
I am not even going to go into the quality of the opponents as in if they were done at the time they fought because then we would have to take off a few off both of the guys list and it would be one long ass debate.

Floyd and Pac are HOF fighters for what they did on their way to 147lbs not after. Neither really have done the same type of amazing things they did early in their careers. At the end of the day they are both HOF fighters but I would bet that Floyd will have nightmares about why he didnt do enough when he fought and PAC will not.

guys ill give a few thoughts.first pac was voted in because of his popularity amoung our group.floyd was left out because he lacked the popularity..pac has won 4 lineal titles yes.one i think is questionable.8 belts is realy a good feat but still nonsence in the reality of things.carpentier fought in all original 8 weight classes from flyweight to heavy wining the light heavy title and fought legend dempsey for the hw title.that is impressive also but he got zero votes..both guys are amoung the top 100 ever.thats a all time great to me.both are not immortals.
we can list all their so called soon to be hof oponents and to me several are not hall worthy but one fighter stands out which is marquez which both beat.
we can say with truth floyd ducked so and so several fighters in there heyday but still he fought some good guys.both fighters have been guilty big time for the last several years in fighting fights that were carefull matchmaking.washed up fighters well past there best.in pacs case mosleyand margo. oscar who not only was washed up but weight drained and clottey a fighter that never was.and again catch weight fights for a clear clever advantage.
floyd fought mosley which all of us wondered is he done.age and inactivity.after the fight we got our anser.cotto was past his best and oscar was on the decline but still a good win for floyd since it was at 154 not 147 when oscar weighed a 145...hatton was good matchmaking for both.guys like chop chop baldimar ill say are fighters that never was.far from special.
dispite that both guys have deminstrated yes there abilty is special.thats why i place both in the top 100 ever.thats a atg.
im a huge pac fan but not blinded.he and floyd are no immortals period.thoses fighters for one reason or another are more then just special.
pac get high praise for his so called feat as a giant killer.thats fucking laughable.harry greb mickey walker now theres a few giant killers.catch weight fights are a joke..the great armstrong fought one catchweight fight.it was for the welter title where in the contract hank MUST weigh at least 133 pounds.thats 14 pounds under the welter division.
ill agree that all chozen in our immortal section belong except pac.floyd and pac yes are special fighters but the immortals for one reason or another were extra special.

now outside of pac there are one maybe 2 in our list in my view are questionable but still id say a yes over pac..now there are a few fighters that recieved little support and id say both resume wise abilty wise etc etc exceed both pac and floyd.sometimes its not the wins and losses but who you fought how you fought who you lost to in very close fights that id choze over the mosley margo oscar wins.a fighter that fought perhaps 25 fights past his best and against still awsome competion.against the whos who in a golden era.fought guys whos caliber of opposition known by maybe perhaps BL and myself.dam terrific fighters that would eat up a judah a chop chop yes clottey cotto and a mosley.
a fighter who had i guess 120 plus fights or so never stoped never koed knockdown only once.kid gavilin anybody.he was very special yet hes not a immortal.so lets not talk pac nor floyd please.not sounding snobish please dont take it that way but untill you know how good how tough how complete the fighters the kid fought at there best then dont list mosley washed up oscar washed up hatton clottey mediocre talent zab chop chop cotto at his stage in career a margo as a measuring stick to immortal staus.

I understand where you are coming from BoxingGenius but I can offer some reasons. First, this list came about in 2010. At the time, Pac Man had been running through people far bigger than him. Floyd had been in pseudo-retirement at the time welter had been getting very interesting. He had come back to fight JMM who at the time was an undersized lightweight. He was getting ready to or had just fought Mosley. That basically means Pac was at his most impressive and Floyd at one of his least least. The second is the guy compiling the list and most of us value lineal titles above all else. Pac is ahead in that category. The 3rd is all of us liked Pac and disliked Floyd.

I also think the only reason Pac was included was to have a present-day fighter in it.

Since then, Floyd defeated Ortiz and Cotto with Shane happening somewhat concurrently. Shane could have been considered lineal, Ortiz was highly rated, and Cotto was a highly rated 154 lber. Pac has whipped Margarito. That was a good win and is sometimes underrated. However, Pac fought Mosley when he shouldn't have and looked bad. He then looked bad against a once again undersized JMM and then lost to Bradley. The Pac-JMM 4 fight can go a long way to putting Pac where he was in 2010. I have a feeling there will be a convincing result to it but all signs to point controversy.